... Boys, you got to learn not to talk to nuns that way.
Posted on 08/09/2015 11:06:27 AM PDT by Old Yeller
The Bible never speaks of a place where one can go to be purified of his sin. Rather, it always speaks of a Person to whom we can go to be purified: Jesus Christ. God tells us that those who refuse to trust Christ to cleanse them from their sins are condemned: Whoever believes in Him avoids condemnation, but whoever does not believe is already condemned for not believing in the name of God's only Son (John 3:18). There are only two choices: Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God (John 3:36; See also Revelation 20:15; Luke 16:19-31, especially verse 26). Anyone who accepts Christ is completely saved: There is no condemnation now for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). Saying that there is no condemnation, certainly eliminates the flames of purgatory.
Another passage which clearly excludes the idea of purgatory is, their sins and transgressions I will remember no more (Hebrews 10:17). If, as the Bible says, God no longer remembers the sins of those who are in Christ, He does not punish them for these sins. To do so would be saying that Christ had not made full payment for them and that God the Father still remembered them. (See also Romans 5:8-11; Hebrews 10:14-18; Psalm 103:12).
Anyone who does not believe that Christ has completely saved him, has not completely trusted Christ to save him. That is, he does not believe that Christ's sacrifice has paid for all of his sins, and thinks he must pay for some of them himself. However, we are saved when we stop trusting what we can do, and start trusting Christ to save us.
The idea that Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient to cleanse us from all of our sins would condemn a great sinner such as the thief who was crucified with Jesus to suffer a long time in purgatory if not for all eternity in hell! Instead, there was nothing left over that Christ's death on the Cross did not cover. When the thief placed his trust in Christ, Jesus said to him, I assure you: this day you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43).
If purgatory existed, and the mass helped people to get out, the rich would have a tremendous advantage by being able to pay for masses to shorten their suffering. The poor instead, would be left to the mercy of the occasional priest who might say an unpaid mass for them. One ex-priest wrote, "If we really believed that the mass would save people from the flames of purgatory, would we make them pay for it? I would even save a dog if I saw one in a fire, and I would never even think of asking to be paid!"
Purgatory was evidently a pagan idea. Virgil, the pagan Latin poet who lived 70 - 19 B.C. divided the departed souls into three different places in his writings: One for the good, one for the damned, and a third where the less bad could pay for their sins. Since the idea of purgatory existed outside of the church before it came into the church, it is probable that it was brought in by contact with pagans like Virgil. There was a great influx of non-Biblical ideas into the church around 300 A.D. when the Roman Emperor Constantine took many unsaved people in as members of the church.
In any event, there is no mention of purgatory in the Bible. Some would try, however, to make the idea sound somewhat Biblical by referring to 2 Maccabees 12:41-45, a passage in one of the apocryphal books written between the times of the Old and New Testaments. These books were never accepted as part of the Hebrew Old Testament, nor quoted in the New Testament, but they are included in the Catholic Bible, though usually with an explanation that they are of a less inspired category. Apart from this passage in 2 Maccabees, the apocrypha is little used by the Catholic church to support a doctrinal position.
It is important to notice that this passage does not speak of purgatory at all, but actually condemns idolatry, particularly the practice of wearing little images on a necklace or such. Hebrew soldiers were found wearing this sort of thing after a battle, and their buddies, on making this discovery, realized that they had died in the sin of idolatry. They then counseled prayer for their souls. The Roman Catholic position is that prayer for them would have been unnecessary if they were in heaven and useless if they were in hell, so there must be another place. The logic seems good, but the result contradicts the clear teaching of the inspired Scripture. Contradicting inspired Scripture with a philosophical response based on an apparent inference from the Apocrypha is a very weak argument indeed. The very word "Apocrypha," which comes from the Greek word for hidden, has come to mean "false," or "of doubtful authorship."
Sometimes it is better to start with basics, trust in the verity of His Word and return to faith in our understanding of experience.
For example, the testimony of Gloria Polo, also is remarkably consistent with the conditions of the Torments, which is a chamber in Hades for unbelievers parallel to the area known as Paradise or Abraham’s Bosom prior to the Cross.
The Torments remain until the Great White Throne Judgment.
In regards to your testimony, I don’t doubt your memory or testimony, but I would categorize it first in the domain of spiritual influence. We know from Scripture that unbelievers do not accept the Cross and even consider it foolishness, because it is only spiritually discerned and since they lack that ability to perceive, they naturally tend to categorize the topic as foolishness.
There still remain plenty of unbelievers without regenerated human spirits, who are influenced by deceiving spirits, and sometimes in their dreams.
Your testimony might also be a remembrance of spiritual events. We aren’t reincarnated, but we might be influenced by deceiving spirits, even given thoughts of the experience of others via spiritual deception.
Why do you continue to repeat a lie and bear false witness to the truth?
I hope she told him that only empty religions have empty crosses.
No.
Twenty-two years later she died and I have no confidence that she is in heaven. I know there's no purgatory and I know there's no use in me - or you - praying for her salvation.
That may sound cold to you. But it's the truth.
I loved her very much but she died and her funeral was depressing.
I will pray for her soul and that you come to the truth
And if you assume that it was just my perception... No, it was the same for everyone there. My brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles even the Priest - everyone.
I have seen MANY Catholic funerals -- and these were STARKLY DIFFERENT from a typical Christian's funeral. It is a night and day difference! A "dark" and "light" difference, by the way.
It's because Catholics define "hope" differently that God does.
Purgatory, saying Mass for the dead, lighting 50-cent candles and the rest of the mess are all contrivances that try to fill the surviving Catholics' empty hope after death.
You have this life alone to make a choice that brings real hope.
I tell you: Satan is at work in the "Holy Roman Catholic Church!!"
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (Jn 3:3)
“I’ve noticed that Jesus does not seem to be part of your economy.”
“You talk a lot about the *spirit* and your experiences but make virtually no reference to Jesus nor do you support your works with Scripture.”
Then you are not reading my posts. I don’t have the time to go back over them and show you, but I assure you that Jesus is my connection to God.
“Dead humans are out of our reach and WE can’t help them.”
You believe what you want and I will believe what I experience and follow the Bible. Funny thing, Jesus communicated with spirits out of body and He said, The things that I do and more you too shall do in my name” as He sent out His disciples. I am one of His many disciples.
If you are correctly interpreting scriptures, follow Jesus and are filled with the Holy spirit, you too will automatically do these things.
“You’re messing with the demonic.”
If it comes to me, yes I mess with it. I refuse to fear it as if I do it only means that I have lost my connection to God’s Love which casts out my fear. In fact, when I meet a dark spirit, I merely thank it for reminding me to pray and stay connected. I refuse to allow it to lower me to it’s level.
Remember, it is good to Love your friends, but even better to Love your enemies!
“First you offer this: “The Holy Spirit is well worth striving for.” Apparently you are under some erroneous impression that one can ‘strive’ for the Holy Spirit.”
The mere act of asking Jesus or God to help you is asking for the Holy Spirit.
John 14
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
“Then you make this comment in your next post: “How many different religions and versions of the Bible exist? Man has been doing this forever.” And perhaps this is a clue from whence your error springs.”
You cling to your beliefs just like the Pharisees clinged to their beliefs. That’s why Jesus had to keep correcting them.
Just what if, what if... as this is really important.. What if you are not correct in some important aspect because of your rigid legalism. It is good to be cautious and not gullible, but I ask you, have you allowed God’s advocate the Holy Spirit to enter you. It really changes your life in many ways. It is the only way that you will truly see Jesus again.
I’m not talking about all the imitation charismatic church experiences. They are far from what Jesus was teaching as they require an individual to surrender to another human being. I’m talking true total surrender within to Jesus Christ. True communion with Jesus. Being one with Him and Our Father.
Don’t listen to me. Be alone and pray to Jesus from the depths of your soul. You will meet Him. But be ready to be changed and be forced to let go of all that you have considered valuable in your past. You can’t hold onto the old and still have room for Jesus to move into you.
I see your point.
... still it shows that YOU think you know a BETTER way of doing things.
Let's see how that would work when assumptions as for base value of integer, in above formula, were to be extended to include other closely related consideration;
Empty cross + Empty tomb = ?
Solve for the simple, basic equation.
Perhaps think of it as the math question of the day.
HMMMmmm...
Then why are you PROUD to be an American?
Did you become naturalized or were you born here?
I responded to your post before I read the entire post. The scripture you quote is saying the same thing I did in my last post.
“We know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.”
Jesus answered him, “Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can’t see the Kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can’t enter into the Kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don’t marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born anew.’ The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don’t know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and don’t understand these things?
11Most certainly I tell you, we speak that which we know, and testify of that which we have seen, and you don’t receive our witness. If I told you earthly things and you don’t believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.
As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged.
This is exactly what I am saying to you. Accept Jesus into you. Accept the Holy Spirit into you as your teacher. They will lift you up and you will meet Jesus who is already here right now. (this is the rapture) When you feel His Love you will know Him. That is one thing satan cannot imitate. When you meet Him, you will feel no fear as it is impossible to experience fear and Jesus’ Love at the same time. That is why John said, “If you say you Love God but do not Love your neighbor, then you are a liar.”
Reread the scripture you quoted and pray from your heart for guidance. If you feel that I am in error, then pray for me that I will gain better understanding. I always welcome those prayers on my behalf. I offer the same.
“That is utter defeat for satan.”
God is in control, period. Even satan is under God’s control and is being used to fulfill God’s promise. Often, satan plows the field with turmoil in order to prepare people so that God’s seeds may sprout.
On the contrary......
Romans 10:9-13 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
*Experience* is no valid way of determining anything, especially when it's trying to ascertain the existence of somewhere nobody has ever been, like *purgatory*.
Purgatory cannot be *figured out*. If it exists, it would have to be divinely revealed, and it wasn't. So there's simply no basis for claiming its existence.
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