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To: MHGinTN; Kolokotronis

We have to be careful not to be saying that Jesus had 2 natures, one divine and one human. It leads very easily into some of the gnostic misunderstandings. Jesus is and always will be the unique union of the divine and the human.

I understand our protestant urge to prevent Mary from being worshipped, but I really have no problem with her carrying from the moment of conception both the divine and the human in the person of Jesus Christ.

We need to draw back from our fear of Mary and embrace her as a huge, willing servant of God whom all generations will call blessed.

By no means should that lead to worship, for scripture is clear: Worship God. Respect, honor, and even wonder are just fine, in my opinion.


517 posted on 08/21/2015 6:58:35 AM PDT by xzins (Don't let others pay your share; reject Freep-a-Fare! Donate-https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: xzins
Here's the text of the Declaration of Chalcedon in Greek lest there be any misunderstanding along with an OK English translation:

Ἑπόμενοι τοίνυν τοῖς ἁγίοις πατράσιν ἕνα καὶ τὸν αὐτὸν ὁμολογεῖν υἱὸν τὸν κύριον ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν συμφώνως ἅπαντες ἐκδιδάσκομεν, τέλειον τὸν αὐτὸν ἐν θεότητι καὶ τέλειον τὸν αὐτὸν ἐν ἀνθρωπότητι, θεὸν ἀληθῶς καὶ ἄνθρωπον ἀληθῶς τὸν αὐτὸν, ἐκ ψυχῆς λογικῆς καὶ σώματος, ὁμοούσιον 66 τῷ πατρὶ κατὰ τὴν θεότητα, καὶ ὁμοούσιον τὸν αὐτὸν ἡμῖν κατὰ τὴν ἀνθρωπότητα, κατὰ πάντα ὅμοιον ἡμῖν χωρὶς ἁμαρτίας· πρὸ αἰώνων μὲν ἐκ τοῦ πατρὸς γεννηθέντα κατὰ τὴν θεότητα, ἐπ᾽ ἐσχάτων δὲ τῶν ἡμερῶν τὸν αὐτὸν δἰ ἡμᾶς καὶ διὰ τὴν ἡμετέραν σωτηρίαν ἐκ Μαρίας τῆς παρθένου τῆς θεοτόκου κατὰ τὴν ἀνθρωπότητα ,68 ἕνα καὶ τὸν αὐτὸν Χριστόν, υἱόν, κύριον, μονογενῆ, ἐκ δύο φύσεων [ἐν δύο φύσεσιν] , ἀσυγχύτως, ἀτρέπτως , ἀδιαιρέτως, ἀχωρίστως γνωριζόμενον· οὐδαμοῦ τῆς τῶν φύσεων διαφορᾶς ἀνῃρημένης διὰ τὴν ἕνωσιν, σωζομένης δὲ μᾶλλον τῆς ἰδιότητος ἑκατέρας φύσεως καὶ εἰς ἓν πρόσωπον καὶ μίαν ὑπὸστασιν συντρεχούσης, οὐκ εἰς δύο πρόσωπα μεριζόμενον ἢ διαιρούμενον, ἀλλ᾽ ἕνα καὶ τὸν αὐτὸν υἱὸν καὶ μονογενῆ, θεὸν λόγον, κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν· καθάπερ ἄνωθεν οἱ προφῆται περὶ αὐτοῦ καὶ αὐτὸς ἡμᾶς ὁ κύριος Ιησοῦς Χριστὸς ἐξεπαίδευσε καὶ τὸ τῶν πατέρων ἡμῖν καραδέδωκε σύμβολον.

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [coessential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures,inconfusedly, unchangeably,indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning him, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.

The 4th Ecumenical Council was held at Chalcedon in 451. Any tdaching on the nature of Christ which departs from this has been heresy for nearly 1600 years.

518 posted on 08/21/2015 7:50:13 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: xzins
How many catholics do you believe actually have this clear, spiritually? The point is that Jesus existed before God/The Trinity prepared a body for Jesus to occupy, therefore Mary cannot be the Mother of someone Who existed BEFORE SHE existed. Stating that Mary is the Mother of God is understood in what way do you suppose by the vast majority of catholics being taught to raise her beyond what God has given us to know of her through His Word? The only major wording in the 451 declaration I would object to is that which creates specious ambiguity regarding Mary The Mother of Jesus, not Mother of God. Whast do you see as the typical definition of the word Mother, as the person in whom a NEW soul is gestated? THERE is the specious ambiguity exploited in catholiciism.

As to the notion that He is now in a body like unto us: Jesus is a much more dimensionally complex being in His current body than we are now, but when we see Him we shall see Him as He is because we will be transformed in a moment int he twinkling of an eye to be like Him. EXCEPT, we will not be a third of the Trinity, so He will always be more than we can ever be.

525 posted on 08/21/2015 8:40:38 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: xzins; MHGinTN
We need to draw back from our fear of Mary and embrace her as a huge, willing servant of God whom all generations will call blessed.

Isn't that projecting a bit?

Not one person has ever said or exhibited anything connected with fear about Mary.

Why presume that's what the issue is with some people objecting to the over-exaltation of Mary, beyond what is justified by Scripture?

581 posted on 08/21/2015 7:27:53 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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