Posted on 08/26/2015 2:25:08 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
The video has now gone viral, providing embarrassment for the charismatic movement and fodder for those who deny that the prophetic gifts are for today.
A self-proclaimed prophet from Scotland disrupted a Sunday morning service on August 16th as Pastor MacArthur stood behind the pulpit, rebuking him for teaching cessationism and for being divisive, announcing that he was a prophet sent by God.
Pastor MacArthur listened quietly before security removed the man, who continued to call for repentance as he was escorted out the door.
Pastor MacArthur then responded like a completely composed, totally unruffled, senior statesman, using humor and assuring the congregants that the security team would handle the intruder with gentleness.
He explained that this uninvited guest claimed that it is heresy to say that spiritual gifts like tongues and prophecy have ceased and he added that, according to 1 Corinthians 14, the spirits of prophets are subject to the prophets and if this man were a real prophet, he wouldn't have behaved that way.
Of course, if you read about what the prophets did in the Old Testament and even in the New Testament (see Acts 21:10-11), a disruptive act like this would be quite minor.
But I do believe in principles of order and honor, and Paul did instruct Timothy never to rebuke an older man (or, elder) but rather to appeal to him (see 1 Timothy 5:1). So, however you view this incident, it did make Charismatics look bad.
As Pastor MacArthur continued to speak, he said "it's a sad situation" and "of all the things you could get upset about" — before he was disrupted by a baby crying, leading to more humor and laughter, after which he called on the congregation to stand with him as he read the Word of God before preaching.
Obviously, I have a real problem with the way things happened, bringing reproach to the gifts of the Spirit in the presence of the entire congregation, not to mention the many thousands who have viewed the video since it was posted.
And I've seen some ridiculous online comments posted to other videos like this one: "I heard online that John MacArthur receive[d] the medical RFID chip/mark of the beast and the Holy Spirit left him."
We're supposed to take this stuff seriously?
But there's something else I have a problem with, and I've raised my voice about it for two years now, also reaching out to Pastor MacArthur publicly and privately to discuss or even debate the relevant issues.
I'm speaking about the extreme rhetoric used by my elder brother in his attacks on my colleagues in the Charismatic Movement, including some of the most saintly, Jesus-loving, Word-based, spiritually-minded people I know anywhere in the world.
I'm talking about charges he made loudly and publicly like this: "The Charismatic Movement is largely the reason the church is in the mess that it's in today. In virtually every area where church life is unbiblical, you can attribute it to the Charismatic Movement."
He claimied we have "stolen the Holy Spirit and created a golden calf and they are dancing around the golden calf as if it is the Holy Spirit. . . The charismatic version of the Holy Spirit is that golden calf . . . around which they dance with their dishonoring exercises."
Pastor MacArthur went as far as saying that we attributed "to the Holy Spirit even the work of Satan."
In short, he called the Charismatic Movement "a farce and a scam" that "has not changed into something good," claiming that it represents "the explosive growth of a false church, as dangerous as any cult or heresy that has ever assaulted Christianity." Accordingly, he calls for a "collective war" against these alleged "pervasive abuses on the Spirit of God."
He stated that "Satan's false teachers, marching to the beat of their own illicit desires, gladly propagate his errors. They are spiritual swindlers, con men, crooks, and charlatans."
And, he continued, "By inventing a Holy Spirit of idolatrous imaginations, the modern Charismatic Movement offers strange fire that has done incalculable harm to the body of Christ. Claiming to focus on the third member of the Trinity, it has in fact profaned His name and denigrated His true work." (I document every quote, in context, in Authentic Fire.)
Although I do not know the man from Scotland who disrupted Pastor MacArthur's service, I suspect that what upset him was not so much the doctrine of cessationism but rather the aggressive and divisive way in which Pastor MacArthur has taught it, maligning many of God's choice servants and mocking those who worship the Lord in ways that are unfamiliar to him.
And so, once more, I appeal to my esteemed colleague, who has done so much good for the cause of Christ for so many decades and who has stood like a rock in the midst of spiritual compromise: Dear brother, you were gentle and gracious after that incident in your church. Would to God that you would display that same grace in your public differences with those of us in the Charismatic Movement — more than a half a billion strong — and would to God you would display that same grace and agree to sit down privately and discuss the relevant issues as men of God.
How can that not be to the glory of Jesus' name and to the good of His people?
I put it in my door to give to JWs who pass by.
Who are unlikely to accept it.
He mentions it, and the context says so, is precisely because what he is experiencing at this event is something he is not at all used to dealing with.
Why do you think that God would give up so much space to describe this event in a volume in which space is a premium, Does He not have something to teach here?
The purpose for this, at the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry, was to manifest His glory through miracles. Do you think that serving gallons and gallons of more booze to drunks would glorify Him then or today? The conclusions you draw from your POV do not glorify Him. The just make Him a party magic entertainer. Where is the spiritual benefit in it for you?
And why would just making more Thunderbird cause his disciples to commit their trust in Him such that theywould abandon their livelihoods to chase after Him?
To me, your ideas are the ones that don't make sense.
And neither do they tell the lesson That God wants us to get here. Did He come to save sinners? or to enable alcoholics? Which?
Yeah. Think of that, 2,000 drunks?
“He mentions it, and the context says so, is precisely because what he is experiencing at this event is something he is not at all used to dealing with.”
Ludicrous. If that were the case, he would say something like “Wow, I’ve never been to a wedding that didn’t serve wine!”, instead he comments on the quality of the wine, and at what point the quality wine is served, and contrasts that with the usual wine-serving practices at other weddings. That demonstrates the contrast here is not in the fact that wine is or isn’t being served, but that the quality wine is being served at a time that it normally would not be.
“The purpose for this, at the inauguration of Jesus’ public ministry, was to manifest His glory through miracles. Do you think that serving gallons and gallons of more booze to drunks would glorify Him then or today? The conclusions you draw from your POV do not glorify Him. The just make Him a party magic entertainer. Where is the spiritual benefit in it for you?”
Certainly the event is illustrative. It shows that Christ loves us and provides for us, and recognizes that there is a proper place and season for all things, including drinking wine. It also serves to destroy the arguments of those legalists who would argue God forbids us from ever imbibing those kinds of beverages, which is nice.
Yeah. Is that Dopey?
Not to all the kids there — ?
I do not practice “speaking in tongues”, whatever that means; and I have serious doubts as to whether it is a “gift” for the modern day Christian church. That said, I know a few people who claim to have the “gift” that I know are Christians. Fortunately, none of them think it is something that makes them more holy.
RE: That said, I know a few people who claim to have the “gift” that I know are Christians.
OK, let’s take them seriously. Do they know what they’re saying? Have they ever attempted to tape what they said or even write it down for people to listen or read?
Thanks for your insights, but I see you haven’t studied Bible wines, wine-making, or preservation of grape syrup as practiced in Bible days. The Scriptures have a lot of things to say about wine consumption and abstinence from it. Maybe doing some study in that area would give a little depth to your understanding of those topics.
And how would you be able to judge whether the interpretation I gave was bent or not? Perhaps you liked the translation another poster gave that mine addressed?
You’re probably right. Sometimes I get excited and go off half cocked. One has to be nimble here to follow what’s going on.
Paraphrasing W. C. Fields, " A man that hates scribes and Pharseesa can't be all wrong . . ."
Mar_14:25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
Pro_3:10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine. Luk_5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Isa_65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
All the above talk about unfermented wine. When Jesus sets up His kingdom, the wine will be grape juice, not Chianti. Pro_23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
Fermentation changes the absorption spectrum of anthocyanins, thus absorbing in the blue and transmitting red. Thus purple grape juice, which is new wine, turns from purple to red when it ferments. God's Word commands "Don't even look at red (alcoholic) wine, when it sparkles (changes refractive index) in the cup, when it stands aright (shows preferential evaporation at the interface between the fluid and the cup surface). Why would the Cana wine be red when He says not to drink it? Did he not come to fulfil The Law, not undermine it?
Mat_5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
You don't have an argument. Wine can be either alcoholic or not, depending on the context, Old Testament or New Testament, whether you like it, or believe it, or not.
When Jesus comes to set up His Kingdom, the refreshing wine will be non-alcoholic.
Show me any of those verses that say the wine does not contain alcohol. Fermentation isn’t even mentioned. You read it into the verses.
I have shown you the verses where they say the wine can get you drunk. See the previous Acts verse where the Apostles were accused of being drunk on new wine.
Look, if you want to believe a different Gospel, that’s fine. The Mormons beat you to it and they believe Jesus wouldn’t drink alcohol because they don’t drink alcohol. I’m just telling you what the Bible says.
And if the Bible says it, that settles it.
First, let meask you a couple of questions:
"So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine" (Prov. 3:10 AV).
This new wine is just coming out of the presses and caught in open containers. This new wine has no alcohol in it as it comes from the presses. Are you good with that?
"Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved" (Mt,9:17 AV; cf Mk. 2:22, Lk. 5:37-38).
The new wine is poured from the storage containers into sewn-up watertight new leather goatskins. The filled goatskins are sealed tight to exclude any exposure to air. This sealed-up new wine has no alcohol in it yet. Are you good with this, too?
If not, please tell me why.
Thank you.
Luk 5:39 And you don’t want new wine after drinking old wine. ‘The old is better,’ you say.”
If new wine has no alcohol, why were the Apostles accused of being drunk on new wine?(Act 2:13-15)
MacArthur is unfortunately quite correct. On Charismatic forums I have found proponents of Open Theism, deniers of the Trinity, Pelagians, Antinomians, and even Roman Catholics, all of whom expressing belief in the same “Holy Spirit,” alleging the same tongues, the same spiritual visions, prophecies, words of wisdom, etc. And in my time as a Charismatic, I witnessed hundreds and hundreds of prophecies— many so vague or common sensical that you couldn’t prove or disprove from whence their origin arises, but many more making predictions that never come true and subsequently building a doctrine of “NT Prophets can be wrong!” in order to explain it away.
It’s one thing to argue that the NT supports a continuation of spiritual gifts. It’s apparently quite another thing, and an extremely difficult thing, to then demonstrate you have any of them!
I don’t discuss it with them, and none of them think they are any more blessed than those who don’t.
I haves serious theological doubts about any so-called speaking in tongues as a present day “gift”. It it happens to be a part of their private prayer life and don’t do it in public, they are not hindering the spread of the Gospel.
Yet there are cults that are cessationism, but aberrations do not invalidate something, and the issue is the Biblical case.
.It’s one thing to argue that the NT supports a continuation of spiritual gifts. It’s apparently quite another thing, and an extremely difficult thing, to then demonstrate you have any of them!
Indeed the last statement is true, and i have yet to find a foretelling prophesies of any detail that can be verified as made before the event (even Michael Brown's 2004 warning of New Orleans is a warning of what could happen, and is not a certain prophecy but i see such as a holy warning written by a spiritual man sensing impending judgment).
Healings however, I know do take place as are abundantly testified to, i myself having been healed of a hernia i had for years after a humble couple prayed for me.
And rather than God taking a sabbatical, and putting the book of Acts much in a museum, we need to see God do as He ever did, as the devil does not take a rest, and Scripture for multitudes is just as foreign to them as it was to pagans in the 1st c., while the arguments against it are ever more pervasive. Christianity began due to the supernatural, and if the church is of the living God it will manifest His gifts which testify to a risen Savior.
There is always overreaction to demonic counterfeits and , MacArthur is quite incorrect in his broadbrush denial of "sign gifts," and in all that he attributes to them, and that is sad.
After many years being among them, these "abberations" are, in fact, the norm among Charismatics. Sure, there are cults that are cessationists. But in your average Charismatic gathering/church, I would doubt that most of them are even saved. Your first warning sign is the existance of Charismatic Catholics who go around side by side the "Protestants."
But as for the Biblical case, are there any "Apostles" walking around? These also are said to be given to the Church, but there hasn't been an Apostle since the death of John. I know some of the Benny Hinn types claim to be Apostles, but, LOL, is my official reply.
Healings however, I know do take place as are abundantly testified to, i myself having been healed of a hernia i had for years after a humble couple prayed for me.
It's important not to confuse cessationism with a denial of miracles. The difference is that there is no one with a gift of healing healing people with their shadow as they walk by on the street. Rather, it's people praying, and their prayers are sometimes answered, and other times they are not. Just because the prayer is answered doesn't mean you can go around saying "Oh, I have the gift of healing!" It's a difference between having the gift as a special and regular part of your ministry, and the average Christian who prays and is answered.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.