Posted on 08/26/2015 2:25:08 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
The video has now gone viral, providing embarrassment for the charismatic movement and fodder for those who deny that the prophetic gifts are for today.
A self-proclaimed prophet from Scotland disrupted a Sunday morning service on August 16th as Pastor MacArthur stood behind the pulpit, rebuking him for teaching cessationism and for being divisive, announcing that he was a prophet sent by God.
Pastor MacArthur listened quietly before security removed the man, who continued to call for repentance as he was escorted out the door.
Pastor MacArthur then responded like a completely composed, totally unruffled, senior statesman, using humor and assuring the congregants that the security team would handle the intruder with gentleness.
He explained that this uninvited guest claimed that it is heresy to say that spiritual gifts like tongues and prophecy have ceased and he added that, according to 1 Corinthians 14, the spirits of prophets are subject to the prophets and if this man were a real prophet, he wouldn't have behaved that way.
Of course, if you read about what the prophets did in the Old Testament and even in the New Testament (see Acts 21:10-11), a disruptive act like this would be quite minor.
But I do believe in principles of order and honor, and Paul did instruct Timothy never to rebuke an older man (or, elder) but rather to appeal to him (see 1 Timothy 5:1). So, however you view this incident, it did make Charismatics look bad.
As Pastor MacArthur continued to speak, he said "it's a sad situation" and "of all the things you could get upset about" — before he was disrupted by a baby crying, leading to more humor and laughter, after which he called on the congregation to stand with him as he read the Word of God before preaching.
Obviously, I have a real problem with the way things happened, bringing reproach to the gifts of the Spirit in the presence of the entire congregation, not to mention the many thousands who have viewed the video since it was posted.
And I've seen some ridiculous online comments posted to other videos like this one: "I heard online that John MacArthur receive[d] the medical RFID chip/mark of the beast and the Holy Spirit left him."
We're supposed to take this stuff seriously?
But there's something else I have a problem with, and I've raised my voice about it for two years now, also reaching out to Pastor MacArthur publicly and privately to discuss or even debate the relevant issues.
I'm speaking about the extreme rhetoric used by my elder brother in his attacks on my colleagues in the Charismatic Movement, including some of the most saintly, Jesus-loving, Word-based, spiritually-minded people I know anywhere in the world.
I'm talking about charges he made loudly and publicly like this: "The Charismatic Movement is largely the reason the church is in the mess that it's in today. In virtually every area where church life is unbiblical, you can attribute it to the Charismatic Movement."
He claimied we have "stolen the Holy Spirit and created a golden calf and they are dancing around the golden calf as if it is the Holy Spirit. . . The charismatic version of the Holy Spirit is that golden calf . . . around which they dance with their dishonoring exercises."
Pastor MacArthur went as far as saying that we attributed "to the Holy Spirit even the work of Satan."
In short, he called the Charismatic Movement "a farce and a scam" that "has not changed into something good," claiming that it represents "the explosive growth of a false church, as dangerous as any cult or heresy that has ever assaulted Christianity." Accordingly, he calls for a "collective war" against these alleged "pervasive abuses on the Spirit of God."
He stated that "Satan's false teachers, marching to the beat of their own illicit desires, gladly propagate his errors. They are spiritual swindlers, con men, crooks, and charlatans."
And, he continued, "By inventing a Holy Spirit of idolatrous imaginations, the modern Charismatic Movement offers strange fire that has done incalculable harm to the body of Christ. Claiming to focus on the third member of the Trinity, it has in fact profaned His name and denigrated His true work." (I document every quote, in context, in Authentic Fire.)
Although I do not know the man from Scotland who disrupted Pastor MacArthur's service, I suspect that what upset him was not so much the doctrine of cessationism but rather the aggressive and divisive way in which Pastor MacArthur has taught it, maligning many of God's choice servants and mocking those who worship the Lord in ways that are unfamiliar to him.
And so, once more, I appeal to my esteemed colleague, who has done so much good for the cause of Christ for so many decades and who has stood like a rock in the midst of spiritual compromise: Dear brother, you were gentle and gracious after that incident in your church. Would to God that you would display that same grace in your public differences with those of us in the Charismatic Movement — more than a half a billion strong — and would to God you would display that same grace and agree to sit down privately and discuss the relevant issues as men of God.
How can that not be to the glory of Jesus' name and to the good of His people?
Don't get confused here. The "new wine" of verses 37, 38, and 39 is οινον νεον (oinon=wine, neon=new), and is the fluid made in the fall, by crushing grapes picked in the fall, and put in learher bags (translated "bottles") right away in the fall while it is still fresh before the sugar content incompletely ferments to ethanol in the absence of air, rather than turning to vinegar, acetic acid, as it would by completely fermenting in open containers exposed to air.
The "new wine" spoken of in Acts 2:13, at the time of Pentecost, which is early summer, is not the same thing at all. The Greek word for it is γλευκους (gleukous, from which we get the word for the sugar form 'glucose') and it is not at all the freshly mde wine/juice of the fall. Here is what the commentator Adam Clarke says about it:
"Acts 2:13
These men are full of new wine - Rather sweet wine, for γλευκους, cannot mean the mustum, or new wine, as there could be none in Judea so early as pentecost. The Γλευκος, gleucus, seems to have been a peculiar kind of wine, and is thus described by Hesychius and Suidas: Γλευκος, το αποσταγμα της σταφυλης, πριν πατηθῃ. Gleucus is that which distils from the grape before it is pressed. This must be at once both the strongest and sweetest wine. Calmet observes that the ancients had the secret of preserving wine sweet through the whole year, and were fond of taking morning draughts of it: to this Horace appears to refer, Sat. l. ii. s. iv. ver. 24."
So please set this Acts reference aside for a moment. I am trying to get you to step up to the plate and answer the questions I asked you in Post #135, which were about the "new wine," the freshly-pressed wine made in the fall, and its first condition immediately as it is put in the goatskins. Do you agree that the Fall New wine is not yet intoxicating?
Yes or No will do.
Well!
Isn't this a geological oddity!
A Jewish wedding and no wine was present!
(Sorry Ulysses)
Nice quotes!
Which translation expert supplied the text found therein?
Soul Brother...
...or NUTS even to TRY to!
1 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.
15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.
St. John, speaking in tongues
That, too . . .
He’s got a skinfull, obviously. ust’ve been chewin’ on the mash . . .
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.
Know any good Apostles lately?
Go on to Chapter 13 of this letter primarily intended for the Corinthians, and see what happens to a lot of these 1st Century temporary grace-gifts when the complete Bible was finally finished and completed, after the ~2,500+ years of progressive revelation that ceased by 100 AD.
No. The wine mentioned in the NT is always the same word. Both new and old/unknown seem to intoxicate. There is no mention of wine that doesn’t intoxicate.
New wine intoxicates in Acts and non-new wine intoxicates in the Upper Room and the Wedding at Cana.
49% of evangelical adults fit the charismatic definition, with 7% of Southern Baptist churches and 6% of mainline churches being charismatic, according to their Senior Pastors, 9% of whom are female (same as non-charismatic). 36% of all U.S. Catholics, and 22% of all charismatics in the U.S. identify as Catholic. Barna research, 2008 http://www.barna.org/congregations-articles/52-is-american-christianity-turning-charismatic
51% of all born again Christians are charismatic, with 46% of all adults who attend a Protestant church identifying with that. 16% of the country's white Protestant congregations are Pentecostal, compared to 65% of the Protestant churches dominated by African-Americans. (Barna research, 2008)
54% of Hispanic Catholics describe themselves as charismatic Christians. http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=75
I concur with your grief on the superficial and ecumenical nature of the movement, while semantically Charismatic refers to a modern movement that transcends denoms, even those which are not Pentecostal, while Pentecostal is used for an entire denom.
And while you have the worse type of "Christian" aberrations (outside cults and Rome) among charismatics, yet:
The highest percentage of those who strongly agree they have a personal responsibility to share their faith was found among believers in Pentecostal/Foursquare churches (73%) http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/5-barna-update/53
81% of Pentecostal/Foursquare believers strongly agree that the Bible is totally accurate in all that it teaches , followed by 77% of Assemblies of God believers, and ending with 26% of Catholics and 22% of Episcopalians. ^
The percentage of Catholics who believed the Bible is totally accurate in all of the principles it teaches declined from 34% in 1991 to 26% in 2011 http://www.barna.org/faith-spirituality/514-barna-study-of-religious-change-since-1991-shows-significant-changes-by-faith-group.
73% (highest) of Pentecostal/Foursquare believers strongly affirm that Christ was sinless on earth, with Catholics, Lutherans and Methodists being tied at 33%, and the lowest being among Episcopalians with just 28% http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/5-barna-update/53
Bible Reading: the highest was 75%, by those going to a Pentecostal/Foursquare church who reported they had read the Bible during the past week (besides at church), while the lowest was among Catholics at 23% - http://www.science20.com/print/972444
By denomination, 61% of the those associated with an Assemblies of God church said they had shared their faith at least once during the past year, as did 61% of those who attend a Pentecostal/Foursquare church, and ending 14% among Episcopalians and just 10% among Roman Catholics. http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/5-barna-update/54
But as for the Biblical case, are there any "Apostles" walking around?
A worthy objection. I know of none who fulfills the qualifications and credentials of Biblical apostles. (Acts 1:21,22; 1Cor. 9:1; Gal. 1:11,12; 2Cor. 6:1-0; 12:12) Barnabas was called an apostle in Acts 14:4,14 but it can be presumed that he was a disciple of the Lord, as Paul was via special revelation.
Perhaps the title could also refer to a man in the sense of a special ordination as a "sent one." But which is a gift of an office with special powers, which is the first among leadership, "secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?" (1 Corinthians 12:28-30)
Perhaps it is possible to differentiate btwn a service office of gifted men from gifts available to any person in any office.
28 And God has placed in the church
Acts 15
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