again, not one of those quotes, says the word alone, or the word ‘bible’, or to use a bible alone, outside the teaching church.
nice try.
yeah, let’s keep playing, you dig into your little anti catholic “im holier than thou” protestant playbook, and i will continue to use logic, history and and God’s own teaching church, Sacred Tradition, and the Word, as history has shown repeatedly, to be the truth.
Remember, without reinterpreting, please tell us all what the bible says it the pillar and foundation of all truth....
go ahead, will wait till you set up your hermeneutical somersaults to explain that away.
14I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; 15but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.(1 Timothy 3:14-15)
Timothy is giving the written Word.
While we're in Timothy.....
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. (2 Tim 3:16-17 NASB)
Suggest you read post 45. That explains why we rely upon the Word and the Word alone.
When you examine the reliance upon the written Word of Jesus, the disciples, Paul, etc we see the importance of the written Word.
There are 13 uses of the word tradition in the Word. Are you familiar with them? If not, perhaps a word study would benefit you.
If we don't have the written Word to compare "revelations" and "new teachings", such as Fatima, we will not know what is or is not the truth.
The pillar and foundation is not the thing.
The church is the pillar and foundation, but it upholds the truth, which is Jesus and the word of God, Scripture.
That verse in no way says that Catholicism IS the truth.
There's another example of relying upon the Word for truth.
In this passage the Bereans were comparing what Paul and Silas were preaching to them to see if it squared away with the Word.
Notice no appeal to "logic, history or Sacred Tradition".
again, not one of those quotes, says the word alone, or the word ‘bible’, or to use a bible alone, outside the teaching church.bttt
And just who and where is a Prot arguing for his veracity based upon the premise of superior holiness (or ensured infallibility)? That is a Catholicism.
i will continue to use logic, history and and God’s own teaching church, Sacred Tradition, and the Word, as history has shown repeatedly, to be the truth.
Then you are not a faithful RC, for ascertaining the veracity of teaching based upon your judgment of what historical statements say is essentially what RCs condemn when evangelicals do so and find the unique claims of Catholicism to be unwarranted.
For instead,
It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of per sons, the Pastors and the flock...the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors. - VEHEMENTER NOS, an Encyclical of Pope Pius X promulgated on February 11, 1906.
— ...in all cases the immediate motive in the mind of a Catholic for his reception of them is, not that they are proved to him by Reason or by History, but because Revelation has declared them by means of that high ecclesiastical Magisterium which is their legitimate exponent.” — John Henry Newman, “A Letter Addressed to the Duke of Norfolk on Occasion of Mr. Gladstone's Recent Expostulation.” 8. The Vatican Council lhttp://www.newmanreader.org/works/anglicans/volume2/gladstone/section8.html
We are even told that we cannot know what Scripture is without placing faith in Rome:
Cardinal Avery Dulles: People cannot discover the contents of revelation by their unaided powers of reason and observation. They have to be told by people who have received in from on high. - Cardinal Avery Dulles, SJ, “Magisterium: Teacher and Guardian of the Faith,” p. 72;
It is the living Church and not Scripture that St. Paul indicates as the pillar and the unshakable ground of truth....no matter what be done the believer cannot believe in the Bible nor find in it the object of his faith until he has previously made an act of faith in the intermediary authorities..." - Catholic Encyclopedia>Tradition and Living Magisterium; http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm
So are you telling me that you ascertain the veracity of Cath. teaching based upon your judgment of what historical sources teach, or do you assent to it based upon the premise of ensured ecclesiastical veracity?
Remember, without reinterpreting, please tell us all what the bible says it the pillar and foundation of all truth...
Actually, the issue is what it supports, which is the Truth, which only Scripture is said to be the wholly inspired of God source of.
And if any reinterpreting is prevalent then it is by RCs (who also imagine that SS means only the Bible can be used, or that it contains all that can ever be known). For without reinterpreting, please tell us all where the Bible says the church is the basis of, and or the uniquely infallible authority on truth, which somehow Caths construe "pillar and foundation of truth" to mean. Else why do they quote it so much in support of that false premise?
And just the Greek words in this text (1Tim. 3:15b) say "ekklēsia zaō theos stulos kai hedraiōma ho / hē / to alētheia," which words are typically translated "church living God, pillar and ground the truth," with "hedraiōma" being a word only occurring here in the NT, undocumented either in the LXX or Hellenistic Jewish or secular Greek, (http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=6581518&postcount=11) coming from a derivative of hedraios, which is from a derivative of hezomai (to sit); sedentary (Strong's), but beware of the root word fallacy .
Hedraios itself does occur 3 times in the NT, and is translated as "stedfast" twice (1Co. 7:37; 15:58) and as "settled" once Col. 1:23, referring to believers being firm or or exhorting them to be firm.
In addition, along with the absence of "the" for "the pillar," the word usually translated "of" is also missing in "of the truth."
Thus both stulos and hedraiōma denote support, and could refer to the church being a pillar and base for the Truth, since it began upon Truth. Note that most of Scripture preceded the church, and which was established Scriptural substantiation in word and in power. It might also be postulated that as this is part of an exhortation to Timothy knowing how to conduct himself "in the church of the living God," perhaps 1Tim. 3:15b could refer to how Timothy conducting himself in the church, supporting and stedfast upon on the Truth.
Both of which is supported by the rest of Scripture, than using an obscure word (hedraiōma) to infer that the church is the basis of Truth or infallible authority on Truth, which is not stated.
The only sense in which the church is the pillar and ground of the truth is the way Israel was, "because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. (Romans 3:2) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Romans 9:4-5)
But which is contrary to what 1Tim. 3:15 of so often used by RCs to support, that being the church of Rome being the basis and infallible authority on Truth, since nowhere is the novel premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility seen, promised or necessary in Scripture.
Instead, God provided and preserved Truth without this magisterium, and the the church actually began in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses over Israel, (Mt. 23:2) who were the historical instruments and stewards of Scripture, and promises of Divine guidance, presence and perpetuation. (Gn. 12:2,3; 17:4,7,8; Ex. 19:5; Lv. 10:11; Dt. 4:31; 17:8-13; Ps, 11:4,9; Is. 41:10, Ps. 89:33,34; Jer. 7:23)
And instead souls followed an itinerant Preacher whom the magisterium rejected, and whom the Messiah reproved them Scripture as being supreme, (Mk. 7:2-16) and established His Truth claims upon scriptural substantiation in word and in power, as did the early church as it began upon this basis. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.)