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To: daniel1212

Your reasoning is specious and is a conclusion that is utterly without support (and which certainly is not even official RC or Lutheran - which it seems you are?), and is so ludicrous that it impugns any teaching by those who teach it.


I don’t find it specious at all. Is there a little reading into the context? Sure. But it makes perfect logical sense to me. Are they referred to as pastors? No. How often in the new testament is any individual referred to with the title of pastor? Correct me if I’m wrong... but I think it’s zero.

Though I will grant you that deacons are also commissioned by the laying on of hands - so they could have been being made pastors and/or deacons. And though it can also be for healing - but there was no healing occurring in these passages, so that usage is ruled out.

Anyway, a blessed Easter to you!


1,087 posted on 03/26/2016 8:00:56 PM PDT by CraigEsq
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To: CraigEsq
I don’t find it specious at all. Is there a little reading into the context? Sure.

A little? There is absolutely no warrant for this absurdity, of making newborn novice souls into pastors at conversion! Having hands laid on souls necessarily makes one a pastor (your cousins the Orthodox do the former to every baptized soul) nor does it require an apostle to do so, as Paul found by the hands of a devout disciple, nor does speaking in tongues and prophesying make one a pastor, else all the Corinthians were, and the requirements for being pastors exclude newborns, nor are the events at issue ever referred as being ordinations. And your desperate rationale that they needed to leave pastors being is refuted by the example of the Ethiopian eunuch conversion. Which also indicate regeneration apart from a further endowment of grace via laying on of hands.

And the conversion of Gentiles of Acts 10 is not set forth as an exception, but a realization of what Peter had promised them, and which he affirms as being salvation by grace, (Acts 10:43; 15:11) God purifying their hearts by the faith that baptism expresses, thus clarifying Acts 2:38. And which defines being baptized with the Spirit. "Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost" (Acts 11:16) which the apostles realized after the Lord had commissioned them and "breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost." (John 20:22)

And in Acts 8:17 it is distinctly said of the Spirit that "yet he was fallen upon none of them," perhaps in power, versus not yet having been ordained as pastors as per your nonsense, which would have made all these Samaritans pastors, as it describes them as a whole. Meanwhile in Acts 19 this laying on of hands goes along with baptism, and is one event, not a later ordination.

And the practice of laying on of hands in ministering the Spirit conflate with Galatians 3:5, "He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit,...by the hearing of faith?." And in Acts 13:2-3 some non-apostles ("certain prophets and teachers") lay hands in Barnabas and Saul - souls who had the fulness of the Spirit - in conveying grace or formal sanction for a mission from the Spirit. Some souls realize the baptism with the Spirit as part of the conversion event, while for others it can be subsequent, or for commissioning, and which keeps God out of the box, being contrary to settling into a standard form with institutionalized religion examples. And thus, contrary to you, the Spirit clearly states that there is "the doctrine of baptisms," the plural baptismōn, and "of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." (Hebrews 6:2)

Are they referred to as pastors? No. How often in the new testament is any individual referred to with the title of pastor? Correct me if I’m wrong... but I think it’s zero.

That is simply unlearned ignorance. Being referred to as pastors refers to these events at issue not being referred to as being ordinations, nor special commissions, of which the Spirit manifestly records instances, and usually with fasting and when laying on of hands was part of this, in contrast to all the Samaritans and others being ordained as pastors or deacons simply because they had hands laid on them. "Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business... Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them." (Acts 6:3,6) "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away." (Acts 13:2-3) Note again that here Barnabas and Saul already had the Spirit. "And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed." (Acts 14:23) Thus the Spirit sees it as important to mention when ordinations or special commissions are taking place, versus when laying in of hands is conveying the baptism with the Spirit or this is realized apart form the former, and when speaking in tongues is one of the corporate gifts all may possess.

1,094 posted on 03/27/2016 7:19:42 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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