Presbyterian Pastor: “I Love Planned Parenthood.” Calls Abortion Business a “Ministry"

Homosexual marriage....abortion justification, see how easy it is to change the rules when you leave Christ's church???sigh.

At least it ain't PETER's!

Would you cut it out with the dramatics? Yes Jackson converted to Islam. Some of his brothers are already members. That Farakan bunch, “Nation of Islam” not mainstream muslims.

As civilization crumbles around us, we need to develop interdenominational love and charity in the ruins.

Is the following statement still valid?

"One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved, in which the priest himself is the sacrifice, Jesus Christ, whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the species of bread and wine; the bread (changed) into His body by the divine power of transubstantiation, and the wine into the blood, so that to accomplish the mystery of unity we ourselves receive from His (nature) what He Himself received from ours."

--Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215)

They don’t see it as baby killing.

So true.

List ANY 'sin' that people commit and the most of them will 'see' nothing wrong with it.

...if they “choose” a child they can feel good about their “choice” and if they choose to kill the child, they can feel good about that “choice” too.

This country has CHOSEN to kill 58,000,000 of it's would_have_been future citizens.

And we rail over 'terrorists' that managed to kill less (9/11) than the abortion industry does EVERY WORKING DAY!!!

Yes Jackson converted to Islam.

There seems to be some question about it.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=michael+jackson+islam&form=EDGEAR&qs=PF&cvid=d93ce2dc5f264577aed3bab34441c3f8&pq=michael%20jackson%20islam

The Presbyterian Church was taken over by democrat liberals years ago

Let me fix that for you: The Presbyterian Church(USA) was taken over by democrat liberals years ago

Nothing new here.

The mainline Presbyterian Church (PC(USA)) has been sliding towards apostasy for over 100 years.

They are pro-gay, pro-Abortion, anti-Biblical.

What we are seeing here is the symptom. The underlying cause is the denial of Scripture as inerrant, inspired word of God. They tend to look at Scripture as a book by men about God. Not a book by God for men.

I corrected my remark in post #27.

Elsie, I am not a theologian but my understanding which may well strike non-Catholics as a rationalization is as follows:

1. Jesus Christ founded His Church on Simon bar Jonah whom He renamed Peter (the Rock) and to whom he gave what we call the power of the keys. Jesus told Peter: What you shall bind on Earth, shall be bound in Heaven. What you shall loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven. This is the authority to forgive sins in the name of Jesus Christ and is delegated (through Apostolic Succession explained below) to bishops and through them to priests.

2. This power of forgiveness exercised via what was traditionally called the Sacrament of Penance and in our times is called the Sacrament of Reconciliation (same sacrament, differing only in name) is quite important. Unrepented major sins will send to Heck those who insufficiently believe in Gosh. Now that is a rule for Catholics and, I believe, Eastern Orthodox who are very similar to us in most practices and who enjoy genuine Apostolic Succession. Their differences with us are over papal authority (Succession of the pope to the authority given to Peter, OR the pope, as a bishop, is no more than primus inter pares or first in prestige among equal bishops and the Orthodox rely much more on synods of bishops than we do since we believe that the pope has all the authority needed. Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit "descended" from the Father AND the Son (the Filioque) while Orthodox believe that the Holy Spirit descended only from the Father. How would I know? I therefore accept the teaching of my Church on this and respect the Orthodox who do not. I cannot imagine anyone being sent to Heck over a faulty understanding of the Filioque.

3. Only those who are in the State of Grace (i.e., without unrepented mortal sins) are allowed by Church law to receive the Eucharist (or Holy Communion) which we believe to be the actual Body and Blood of Jesus Christ under the continued appearance of bread and wine. One may have one's sins forgiven in certain circumstances without the sacrament of Penance but it is far more uncertain and difficult. At the Last Supper, Jesus performed the first consecration of bread and wine and caused the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into His Body and Blood, commanding them to "Do this in memory of Me." There is also a reference in the Gospel of John somewhere around John 6: 65-70 to the effect that when Jesus told His disciples that the apparent bread and wine that they would consume would have actually become His actual Body and Blood, their reaction seemed to have been shock that He was telling them to be ritual cannibals as they saw it. John observes that many of the disciples found this a hard saying and walked away. Many still walk away. Yet, Jesus told those disciples: "Unless you eat my Flesh and drink My Blood you shall not see God." I feel sure that many Reformed Christians have good faith Scriptural differences as to interpretation of that passage. And I believe that they rely on other Scriptural references suggesting that what we Catholics deem transubstantiation (change of substance without change in appearance) is merely a memorial and that the bread remains merely bread and the wine (or even non-alcoholic grape juice) remains merely wine. Without actual apostolic succession, they are correct for their services but not for our consecrations.

4. In the strictest sense, being in communion means being in the State of Grace and in substantial agreement on doctrine or dogma which, for us, is based on Scripture and Tradition known as the Teaching Magisterium of the Church most often to be found in papal and conciliar definitions of doctrine (i.e., Mary's having been conceived without sin or that she was assumed by the power of God into heaven, neither of which doctrines are Scriptural as I understand it).

5. In a broader sense, while we Catholics believe that Catholicism is the original Church established by Jesus Christ and that Orthodoxy is close enough to be fully part of it despite schismatic differences and mutual anathemas hurled at one another in 1054 AD, I and many believe that those who have been baptized into any Christian church by water and the Spirit "In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" are to that extent members of the Church although not in perfect communion with it due to doctrinal differences. They are not eligible to receive the Eucharist under ordinary non-emergency circumstances. Missouri Synod Lutherans have similar beliefs and I am not free (in Catholicism) to receive their Eucharist nor am I allowed by them to receive it. We are not so united as to be in genuine communion. The Orthodox have Apostolic Succession (an unbroken history of descent from the original apostles, unlike Reformed Churches. The imperfect membership of any denomination as outlined above, is sufficient to qualify for Heaven. Anyone OUTSIDE of that broad definition is presumptively challenged as to eligibility for Heaven with exceptions noted below. I have no explanation for how one is saved without eating His Body and Drinking His Blood. I leave that to those more scholarly than I.

6. Certain people not conventionally baptized have probably made it to Heaven or so I like to believe. First among these would be the unbaptized murdered unborn who had no chance to be baptized through no fault of their own. If they are ineligible for Heaven, then abortion is an infinitely more monstrous crime against God and humanity than we already acknowledge it to be. I do not believe that God creates unborn humans with an intent to send them to Heck just because they were murdered in utero.

7. Similarly, there have been notably moral people in history, to us known or unknown but everyone is known to God and whom many Catholics believe to have been admitted to Heaven. We cannot know for sure but God knows and that is what matters. It is said that when Peter was being crucified upside down at a garden party thrown by Nero, he was put out of his misery by a conscience stricken pagan Roman soldier, who likely was promptly executed himself for depriving Nero of the entertainment of watching Peter die a prolonged death. We call such martyrdom for moral purposes of one not baptized by water and the Spirit, "baptism by fire."

7. Then, again believing that God creates no person with the specific intention in advance of sending that person to Heck and noting that God gave each of us free will to obey or disobey as we prefer and to be eternally judged accordingly and also noting that virtually every human being ever born had God's essential law written on his/her heart as did Adam and Eve created but not born, he holds responsible each of us in justice. Some had no exposure whatsoever to the Scriptures or to Jesus Christ (say an otherwise righteous Lakota Indian in born in what would become Nebraska in the year 1,000 AD when Christians were unaware of this continent much less of him and he of them). Imagine that he lived a life of faithfulness to his only wife, was a fine and moral father to his children, honorable in his dealings with others, brave and honorable in battle defending his family and people in battle, diligent in support of his family, dying in old age with the universal respect and admiration of his tribe, believing in a Great Spirit and Creator of all people (the closest he could have to our beliefs as to God) and resources that he observed and obedient to God's law written on his heart. Call me a heretic, but God would not have bothered writing His law on the man's heart if inevitably the man would be sent to Heck, again through no fault of his own.

8. We Catholics once believed that the murdered unborn or that Indian warrior would spend eternity in a happy place called Limbo which, however, did not feature a direct relationship with God as did Heaven. Limbo seems to have faded as a belief around the time of Vatican II.

9. When I was a beardless youth in the 1950s, there was not much cordiality between Catholics and other Christians. I believed that if I so much as peeked into a Protestant Church, God would probably strike me dead by lightning. Luther, Calvin and Zwingli were each anti-Christs leading folks to Heck. I have grown up since then.

10. Times change and many of us with them. I will not needlessly extend this post by detailing the great non-Catholic Christians I have been privileged to know. Suffice it to say that what I believe is consistent with the statement you cite from Pope Innocent III and the Fourth Lateran Council. We just don't express ourselves in that language any more. Excluding others from Heaven is God's call and above our pay grade as Catholics. 11. There was a schismatic cult led by a then renegade Jesuit priest, Leonard Feeney, SJ, who resided in Boston or its vicinity. He was so dedicated to an excruciatingly narrow view of the Scriptural (BTW) admonition that "Outside the Church, there is no salvation," that, just in case, people should be baptized as often as possible to improve the odds that one is validly baptized. From Cardinal Cushing to the Vatican, Feeney got the surprise response that his ravings placed HIM outside the Church. Fortunately for Fr. Feeney, he eventually repented and recanted and returned to submission to the Church before he died. Not so many of his followers who run St. Benedict Houses in New England to this day casting anathemas at anyone with the temerity to disagree with THEIR idea of the meaning of Extra Ecclesia, Nulla Salus. I hope to make Heaven but I cannot waste time second-guessing God and making believe I can exclude others. Again, that's God's call and His alone.

Sorry for the length of this but you posed a very serious question that deserved a very serious and comprehensive answer. I am sure that I have forgotten something important but forgive my incapacities. I welcome correction by any better informed Catholic of whom there are many.

As ever, may God bless you and yours!

Thanks! God bless!

Yes, they MUST. They must, since they follow the devil. And the devil sees himself as the god of this world, and wants real Christianity gone. Planned Parenthood IS a ministry, to Satan.

Elsie, I am not a theologian but my understanding which may well strike non-Catholics as a rationalization is as follows:

1. Jesus Christ founded His Church on Simon bar Jonah whom He renamed Peter (the Rock) and to whom he gave what we call the power of the keys.

According to a mighty well respected CATHOLIC theologian; He did not...

As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18

• Augustine, sermon:

"Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer. — John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327

Upon this rock, said the Lord, I will build my Church. Upon this confession, upon this that you said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer her (Mt. 16:18). — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 236A.3, p. 48.

• Augustine, sermon:

For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, 'On this rock will I build my Church,' because Peter had said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. — Augustine Tractate CXXIV; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: First Series, Volume VII Tractate CXXIV (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.cxxv.html)

• Augustine, sermon:

And Peter, one speaking for the rest of them, one for all, said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:15-16)...And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church. — John Rotelle, O.S.A. Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 270.2, p. 289

• Augustine, sermon:

Peter had already said to him, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' He had already heard, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her' (Mt 16:16-18)...Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 244.1, p. 95

• Augustine, sermon:

...because on this rock, he said, I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not overcome it (Mt. 16:18). Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1995), Sermons, Volume III/10, Sermon 358.5, p. 193

• Augustine, Psalm LXI:

Let us call to mind the Gospel: 'Upon this Rock I will build My Church.' Therefore She crieth from the ends of the earth, whom He hath willed to build upon a Rock. But in order that the Church might be builded upon the Rock, who was made the Rock? Hear Paul saying: 'But the Rock was Christ.' On Him therefore builded we have been. — Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VIII, Saint Augustin, Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXI.3, p. 249. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXI.html)

• Augustine, in “Retractions,”

In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable. — The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1:.

So...

Was all of these words indicative of a Yes or a No?

I can think of a better word that starts with 'de'.

That works for me, Elsie

DEFUND/DISMANTLE socialist collectives, foreign and domestic.

DEPOPULATE socialists from the body politic.

DESTROY anti-truth, anti-individual, anti-freedom, anti-life collectives/individuals as needed.

The answer is that it was valid then, valid now and always will be valid but as I further explained in #50. You pose a challenging question. You cannot expect a simple yes or no. Our use of language has changed over 900 years but the truth remains the same.

You cannot expect a simple yes or no.

Yes; I can; and in the end; you gave me one.

Thanks.

Here's the somewhat short answer you seem to prefer:

1. St. Augustine of Hippo was a great saint and a great bishop and a very prolific and profound writer and is regarded, among other things, as patron saint of theologians.

2. He was not infallible and did not claim to be. Before his ordination as a priest, he had a concubine who bore him children and as to whom he expressed great love and devotion. He dumped her when his well-meaning mother arranged his engagement to an 11 year old heiress (who he never married nor is believed to have ever taken as a lover. His amorous adventures were substantial and widespread and notorious. He actually composed a prayer well before he was ordained to the effect: "God grant me celibacy and continence BUT NOT YET!" He also preached that sin entered the world because of man's failure to control woman.

3. In a sense, he was right as to the importance of Peter's Confession of belief in Jesus Christ. That Confession of Faith seems to have motivated Jesus's choice of Simon bar Jonah as Peter.

4. It was to Simon bar Jonah, renamed as Peter, however, that Jesus Christ granted the keys of the Kingdom and the power to forgive or not forgive sins. That power was conferred on the human being now named Peter and NOT on his confession of belief that Jesus was the Christ. We Catholics believe that the power did not die at Nero's monstrous garden party with Peter's crucifixion on or about 10/13/64.

5. Sins (billions upon billions of them) continued to be committed by human beings (billions upon billions of them) who then had a need for forgiveness. The keys passed through Peter to Linus and then to Anacletus (aka Cletus) and to 263 successor popes right down to Bergoglio. They, in turn, have authorized millions of priests to be a conduit of that forgiveness through the administration of the Sacrament of Penance.

Sigh...

Yes/no..

right/wrong.

That Confession of Faith seems to have motivated Jesus's choice of Simon bar Jonah as Peter.

4. It was to Simon bar Jonah, renamed as Peter,

The Book that Rome assembled shows that simon was ALREADY KNOWN AS Peter before Matthew 16:18 came along.

NIV Matthew 4:18-19
18. As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
19. "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."

NIV Matthew 8:14
When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.

NIV Matthew 10:1-2
1. He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
2. These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;

NIV Matthew 14:28-31
28. "Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."
29. "Come," he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.
30. But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"
31. Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"

NIV Matthew 15:13-16
13. He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
14. Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
15. Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."
16. "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'

BEFORE the following verses came along.....

NIV Matthew 16:13-18
13. When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14. They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15. "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16. Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17. Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

19. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."