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To: daniel1212
Dan, you keep on confusing "pastors" who are mentioned once only for a class which in Ephesians 4:11 are separate as a class, similar to "scribes and Pharisees" in other scriptures. Certainly one person could be both, but the functions are not interchangeable. Then your arguments continue circle-wise, claiming a pastor is one who labors in the word, then later on claiming that one laboring in the word is therefore a pastor. It looks like your head is so full of equating the two, particularly as they are regularly cross-branded in today's churches, that you cannot see that the functions are different as are the titles. Again and again.

No wonder that seminary-trained young men are handed the key role in a local church, and tries to be all three with no relief. Then is physically, mentally, and spiritually worn out and burned out before the age of fifty.

Peter called himself an elder, not a pastor. Peter didn't identify himself as a theologian, either, but instead pointed to Paul.

Your argument goes on and on continually misidentifying function with title and titles with other titles until none has any meaning except that which you assign to them. You need to unravel in a systematic way until you get back to basics. Then you will have a New Testament Church.

If you want to get an idea of how one operates, attend a "Plymouth"-brethren-type church, where there are no pastors of the kind found in the Reformed descendants of the Roman episcopacy. In the Romanist-modeled military-type episcopacy, you have the commissioned officers, then you have other ranks. Just like the armies of thew world. That's not the kind of church that Paul gave to the Gentile world. He didn't set them up as a two-class, clergy-run vs subjugated lay people hierarchies. They were assemblies governed by a plurality of spiritually mature elders.

=============

Just a couple of comments on a typical volume, "Reimagining Church," by Frank Viola which treats this issue:

Selected comments:

The body of Christ has been stifled by human traditions for far too long. Reimagining Church charts a fresh course for the church that recovers the simplicity of Christ and listens seriously to what the voice of the Great Shepherd is saying to His people.”

Jon Zens,
editor of Searching Together
and author of A Church Building Every ½ Mile: What Makes American Christianity Tick?

----

“If Pagan Christianity exposes the reality that much of our current church practice has little basis in the Bible, Reimagining Church takes the next step to establish what truly biblical church life looks like. With the inner life of the Trinity as the starting point, Viola paints an amazing picture of organic church life.”

John White, community facilitator at LK10:
A Community of Practice for Church Planters

==========

What I have written, though different than your preferred model, is not aberrant to scripture, nor does it give ammunition to the Romanists. Rather, it does fatally undercut the paganicity with which the Roman model and its poor Protestant models are shot through. The Protestants had a good start on reforming the catholic faith, but failed to carry it through to completion and wound up with several dividing flaws, one being keeping the two-class culture, were the Protestant pastor/elder/bishop is roughly equivalent to a Catholic priest.

265 posted on 04/29/2016 9:12:22 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: imardmd1
Dan, you keep on confusing "pastors" who are mentioned once only for a class which in Ephesians 4:11 are separate as a class, similar to "scribes and Pharisees" in other scriptures. Certainly one person could be both, but the functions are not interchangeable.

Which is simply on your say-so, while as said, besides apostles, presbuteros/episkopos are the ones charged with teaching and functioning as pastors/shepherds of the flock, to are to care for the church, and be "apt to teach," and "feed the flock," rebuke, exhort," etc.

It looks like your head is so full of equating the two, particularly as they are regularly cross-branded in today's churches, that you cannot see that the functions are different as are the titles. Again and again.

Which again is what your assertions seem to evidence, that your head is so full of imagining the functions of pastor, episkopos, and presbuteros not at all (even "dramatically" not) interchangeable, equivalent, and synonomous, that cannot see that episkopos, and presbuteros are actually used for the very same persons, and who are the only ones besides apostles charged with and described as functioning as spiritual shepherds over the flock.

Peter called himself an elder, not a pastor.

Nor need he to, as the later broadly refers to doing what only (besides apostles) episkopos/presbuteros are charged with and described as doing, functioning as spiritual shepherds.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; (1 Peter 5:2)

One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) (1 Timothy 3:4-5)

Deacons assist them.

If you want to get an idea of how one operates, attend a "Plymouth"-brethren-type church, where there are no pastors of the...two-class, clergy-run vs subjugated lay people hierarchies.

That is simply another false dilemma, as if , as clergy-run equates to subjugated lay people as with Rome, and God hates a false balance. For Scripture does indeed clearly charges and describes presbuteros/episkopos are being over the flock, and enjoins conditional obedience - not obeisance - to them, and which are to Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine," and "speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority" sound doctrine, even "sharply" in some cases. (2 Timothy 4:2; Titus 1:13, 2:15)

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. (Hebrews 13:17)

Just a couple of comments on a typical volume, "Reimagining Church," by Frank Viola

Just as i suspected. You have bought into the anti-authoritarian "Christ is the head of the gathering or meeting, and so human heads are required, that "the one who plants a New Testament-styled church leaves that church without a pastor, elders...," ("Pagan Christianity," http://www.victoryseekersministries.com/pdf/VSM%2041.pdf) "the New Testament knows nothing of an authoritative mode of leadership,” (Reimagining Church, p. 198) as if 1 Corinthians 14 does not testify to the failure of pastoral "taking the oversight," which is the other extreme from Romanism. If anything, churches like the S Baptist need more consensual centralized accountability, which is the Biblical model, but by street-level brethren given to hospitality, not lording it over the flock, yet with the superintendence and authority such as Timothy and Titus are charged with exercising. The balance is between such an elevated position that a 1 Cor 14 type meeting never can be realized, as only the pastor ever preaches or shares the word, and the flock can never see how the pastor lives or eat with him at home, or even Roman-type lording, and that of having no head pastoral oversight and authority, and to which leadership obedience is enjoined, and the preaching by such as Paul exampled in Acts 20.

The pastor just called me up and asked me, a much unworthy servant, to share the word at tonight's house meeting, and in which time is provided for those present to ask for prayer, and to give a short testimony (which is invited), and worship and corporate prayer follows before the pastor or pastor-appointed speaker (the latter often being the case) gives a message, but i recognize him as the head pastor, and who has unique authority. (I would like to teach on "the devil wants your worship."

You need to unravel in a systematic way until you get back to basics.

Mere bombast, as it is you who ignore what Scripture systematically shows, and insist on reading a foreign ecclesiology into Scripture, as Caths do. I have thus sadly dropped you from my ping list as you represent an opposite detrimental extreme.

290 posted on 04/30/2016 7:48:15 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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