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To: Prince of Desmond; BlatherNaut; piusv
Note from Roncalli onwards they were ALL heretics before being elected. They were ineligible matter under Divine Law. They are nothing but mounds of dirt. Rules of conclave that merely govern electoral proceedings have no relevance at all on this.

If you do want to play that game, however, as some are doing with Bergoglio's conclave and electioneering, massive electioneering and full scale plotting was documented in 1958 before the conclave results, and the winner Roncalli was predicted in advance and published in the German press, by the late Dr. Elizabeth Gerstner. The scheming took place in the chambers of the newly formed (1953) Council of the Laity. Gerstner worked in that office and was witness to the plotting. Under the Rules of conclave of Pope Pius X and by the relevant rules of Pope Pius XII, that alone would invalidate the results. (Forget any Siri fables as they are meaningless and without any merit.)

You cannot be of good will to make up your own heretical praxis in dealing with this situation. The Church clearly states what must be done in the event of heresy which the Church denotes as the Gates of Hell:

Pope Paul IV, CUM EX APOSTOLATUS OFFICIO":

3. (iii) , and as such must be avoided and must be deprived of the sympathy of all natural kindness.

6...."or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy:

(i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless;"

7.(ii) the laity;

shall be permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs

To the greater confusion, moreover, of those thus promoted or elevated, if these shall have wished to prolong their government and authority, they shall be permitted to request the assistance of the secular arm against these same individuals thus promoted or elevated; nor shall those who withdraw on this account, in the aforementioned circumstances, from fidelity and obedience to those thus promoted and elevated, be subject, as are those who tear the tunic of the Lord, to the retribution of any censures or penalties."

Somehow I don't think Zero would be of much help in this matter.

And this practice would apply to one who was not a heretic before being elected but became one afterwards.

St Robert Bellarmine, "De Romano Pontifice", ("On the Roman Pontiff"), liber II, caput 30:

"For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority and from reason that the manifest heretic is "ipso facto" deposed. The argument from authority is based on St. Paul (Titus, c. 3), who orders that the heretic be avoided after two warnings, that is, after showing himself to be manifestly obstinate - which means before any excommunication or judicial sentence."

He is a Saint and even more so one of the 30 (genuine) declared Doctors of the Church and you have the unmitigated temerity to belittle him and call him a hypocrite!?

There are dozens more, from after the time the theological issue was settled, that I can cite that state the same.

Game, set, match.

Either that or go full apostate and start cheerleading with the rest about how wonderful Bergoglio is.

While you're at it, go vote for Hillary as well.

But don't parrot ridiculous tripe from the sellout cults or from the likes of pseudo-trad talking heads such as John Vennari who insist Bergoglio is the pope but would forbid him teaching the catechism to his children.

He is either the pope and you must obey him in all matters pertaining to the Faith (except direct orders against the Natural law such as theft, murder, etc.) or he is a heretic and not a Catholic nor a pope in the least.

You can't have it any other way.

69 posted on 05/14/2016 12:27:01 AM PDT by SGNA
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To: Prince of Desmond; BlatherNaut; piusv
Might as well highlight the following from the beginning of the Apostolic Constitution - which certainly spells it out: A N T I C H R I S T: "and We have been concerned also lest it may befall Us to see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by the prophet Daniel, in the holy place."

CUM EX APOSTOLATUS OFFICIO - APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION OF HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL IV, 15TH FEBUARY 1559 - (ROMAN BULLARIUM VOL. IV. SEC. I, PP. 354-357)

By virtue of the Apostolic office which, despite our unworthiness, has been entrusted to Us by God, We are responsible for the general care of the flock of the Lord. Because of this, in order that the flock may be faithfully guarded and beneficially directed, We are bound to be diligently watchful after the manner of a vigilant Shepherd and to ensure most carefully that certain people who consider the study of the truth beneath them should be driven out of the sheepfold of Christ and no longer continue to disseminate error from positions of authority. We refer in particular to those who in this age, impelled by their sinfulness and supported by their cunning, are attacking with unusual learning and malice the discipline of the orthodox Faith, and who, moreover, by perverting the import of Holy Scripture, are striving to rend the unity of the Catholic Church and the seamless tunic of the Lord.

1.In assessing Our duty and the situation now prevailing, We have been weighed upon by the thought that a matter of this kind [i.e. error in respect of the Faith] is so grave and so dangerous that the Roman Pontiff, who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fulness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith. Remembering also that, where danger is greater, it must more fully and more diligently be counteracted, We have been concerned lest false prophets or others, even if they have only secular jurisdiction, should wretchedly ensnare the souls of the simple, and drag with them into perdition, destruction and damnation countless peoples committed to their care and rule, either in spiritual or in temporal matters; and We have been concerned also lest it may befall Us to see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by the prophet Daniel, in the holy place. In view of this, Our desire has been to fulfil our Pastoral duty, insofar as, with the help of God, We are able, so as to arrest the foxes who are occupying themselves in the destruction of the vineyard of the Lord and to keep the wolves from the sheepfolds, lest We seem to be dumb watchdogs that cannot bark and lest We perish with the wicked husbandman and be compared with the hireling.

70 posted on 05/14/2016 4:00:20 AM PDT by SGNA
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To: SGNA
But don't parrot ridiculous tripe from the sellout cults or from the likes of pseudo-trad talking heads such as John Vennari who insist Bergoglio is the pope but would forbid him teaching the catechism to his children.

More R&R nonsense.

72 posted on 05/14/2016 4:57:45 AM PDT by piusv (The Spirit of Christ hasn't refrained from using separated churches as means of salvation:VII heresy)
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To: SGNA
If you do want to play that game, however, as some are doing with Bergoglio's conclave and electioneering, massive electioneering and full scale plotting was documented in 1958 before the conclave results, and the winner Roncalli was predicted in advance and published in the German press, by the late Dr. Elizabeth Gerstner. The scheming took place in the chambers of the newly formed (1953) Council of the Laity. Gerstner worked in that office and was witness to the plotting.

Tabloid rumor and calumny unsupported by any official Church pronouncement.

You cannot be of good will to make up your own heretical praxis in dealing with this situation.

Indubitably. But it seems that Sedevacantists have no scruples on that issue.

The Church clearly states what must be done in the event of heresy which the Church denotes as the Gates of Hell:

Why bother seeing what the Church denotes in this situation? Use your private judgement on the matter. That's the Sedevancantist rationale for unilaterally declaring the Pope heretical. Why should what Church denotes on any topic be of relevance to them?

He is a Saint and even more so one of the 30 (genuine) declared Doctors of the Church and you have the unmitigated temerity to belittle him and call him a hypocrite!?

Rhetorical irony evidently isn't something well-understood among empty-chair Protestants. And I like how, again, the Sedevacantists have the haughtiness to dictate which doctors of the church are genuine. 'Tis good to know that the Almighty has established the Sedevacantists as alternative authorities on that matter if we grow weary of the Popes.

Either that or go full apostate and start cheerleading with the rest about how wonderful Bergoglio is.

Why indeed would I? It is within our permitted liberties to disprove of and oppose him to his face, even if we are not granted the authority to will his authority out out of existence. That is what the Sedevacantists fail to grasp.

While you're at it, go vote for Hillary as well.

It is against the teachings of the true Church to vote for a pro-abortion politician; I do not consider it my private liberty to use my private judgment to defy the Church's sovereign authority.

He is either the pope and you must obey him in all matters pertaining to the Faith (except direct orders against the Natural law such as theft, murder, etc.) or he is a heretic and not a Catholic nor a pope in the least.

No, he is an errant Pope, though not defined as a heretic by the Church; hence it is our right and duty as faithful Catholics to oppose his errors. You cannot, I say again, simply will him out of existence.

73 posted on 05/14/2016 12:02:21 PM PDT by Prince of Desmond
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