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To: Iscool; MHGinTN
Here's a couple...

Neither of those sources say what you claim. I'm taking these in chronological order, breaking them into separate posts.

Irenaeus.

The except cited is from Book V, Ch. 29. Some effort to read in context would have been helpful for the author of that article.

In Book V, Ch. 25, Irenaeus had already made clear that the saints are present at the start of the Tribulation:

4. The Lord also spoke as follows to those who did not believe in Him: “I have come in my Father’s name, and ye have not received Me: when another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive,”4668 calling Antichrist “the other,” because he is alienated from the Lord. This is also the unjust judge, whom the Lord mentioned as one “who feared not God, neither regarded man,”4669 to whom the widow fled in her forgetfulness of God,—that is, the earthly Jerusalem,—to be avenged of her adversary. Which also he shall do in the time of his kingdom: he shall remove his kingdom into that [city], and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ. To this purpose Daniel says again: “And he shall desolate the holy place; and sin has been given for a sacrifice,4670 and righteousness been cast away in the earth, and he has been active (fecit), and gone on prosperously.”4671 And the angel Gabriel, when explaining his vision, states with regard to this person: “And towards the end of their kingdom a king of a most fierce countenance shall arise, one understanding [dark] questions, and exceedingly powerful, full of wonders; and he shall corrupt, direct, influence (faciet), and put strong men down, the holy people likewise; and his yoke shall be directed as a wreath [round their neck]; deceit shall be in his hand, and he shall be lifted up in his heart: he shall also ruin many by deceit, and lead many to perdition, bruising them in his hand like eggs.”4672 And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: “And in the midst of the week,” he says, “the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.”4673 Now three years and six months constitute the half-week. Source

To read Irenaeus is to understand the church is present during the Tribulation and is persecuted ("put to flight").

Irenaeus reiterates the point in his next chapter:

1. In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord’s disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: “And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.”4676 It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.Source

So in chapters 25 and 26 of Book V, Irenaeus rather clear indicates the Church is present at the start of the Tribulation period. Does he somehow magically change views when we get to Chapter 29 and quoted sentence offered as supposedly a PTR declaration? No. It is pure "putting on the glasses of one's presuppositions" reading going on here to think that.

"Those nations, however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;”4698 so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”4699 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.
The imagery here is one of the refiner's fire (cf., e.g., 1 Pet. 1:7 "So that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ."). Irenaeus right before the supposed "rapture" phrase, speaks of how the stubble of the straw "by means of combustion, serves for working gold."

And notice the final sentence here -- a sentence that the quote in the article which you've copied and pasted conveniently omits: "For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption." The righteous (the saints, the "church") past through into the Tribulation and are tested and "put to flight." Those who prove worthy of the test are crowned.

To try to take this carefully truncated portion from Irenaeus and twist it to make him appear to be speaking of a PTR is rank intellectual dishonesty.

506 posted on 05/26/2016 1:03:24 PM PDT by CpnHook
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To: Iscool
The quoted section from Irenaeus addresses the people written of in Daniel. These would be Jews, not the Church. The Church, the Ekklesia of Jesus was not introduced until John 13-17, by Jesus Himself and connect5ed to what He taught Nicodemus in John 3.

But you will never get the poster to acknowledge that there are Church Age saints who are not Tribulation Saints, nor will you get the poster to acknowledge that he has made an error due to incorrect assignation of Matthew and Mark ... the Luke 21 Discourse was spoken in the Temple followed by the Olivet explanation.

I chose to not discuss these issues with him/her further because there is an ego problem hindering reasonable discussion.

This is a speculation: perhaps by the time Irenaeus wrote his commentaries the lack of the Rapture cited as imminent in the Bible left CFs wanting to explain why, thus they gradually greyed the Rapture imminency into an amalgam of the Day of The Lord and the deliverance from the wrath to come, as assured by Paul in the Thessalonian letters. ... Imminent need not mean soon or right away. Maranatha coined by the early believers indicates they were anticipating the Raptrure and the wrath to those not Raptured to happen in their immediate lives. When it had not happened by Irenaeus's day, and folks were dying and being persecuted by men, the believers were confused. Add to that confusion that false letters and teaching was coming in at the start and you have a situation which the leadership felt needed to be dealt with and they dealt with it by various errors, such as conflating The Day of The Lord with the Ekklesia delivery from wrath, or presuming the events prophesied in Matthew and Mark were fulfilled in AD 70. There are teaches even today trying to float that one, relying on dating The Revelation to AD67 or there abouts.

507 posted on 05/26/2016 1:20:56 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Democrats bait then switch; their fishy voters buy it every time.)
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