Posted on 07/13/2016 3:51:52 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator
"...America was a CHRISTIAN nation..."
Not according to the founding documents and the Constitution. George Washington also wrote some warm letters to congregations of Jewish Sephardim.
Culturally and population-wise, it was a chrstian country. I'm sure that's what boatbums meant.
But at any rate, the traditional religion of the United States has absolutely nothing to do with determining the One True Religion. It's totally irrelevant. If you don't care what the One True Religion is and only want to be a "good American" it has significance, but not otherwise.
Unfortunately, the Old Sefaradim were very liberal, almost proto-Reform, and eventually most intermarried and disappeared.
Thanks for the support, familyop!
Hoping you weathered that storm. :o)
I'd appreciate it if you didn't presume to tell me what I "assume" nor why I believe what I do. I don't know what happened in your past to draw you away from the Christian faith - though I know "who" is really behind it (I John 4:3 ; 2 Corinthians 4:4). I believe Christianity because of who Jesus Christ is and how I have come to know and follow him since the age of sixteen. I also put myself through Bible college precisely because I wanted to know for myself if it was true rather than just swallow what I had been born into (Roman Catholicism). I found that every doubt I had was answered by God's word which I know is both the writings contained in the Tanakh as well as the New Testament.
What is called the New Testament, as you probably already know, consists of the eye witness accounts of the disciples of Jesus covering his time here on earth and his teachings. As you probably also know, the majority of the first Christians were Jews and they spread the good news of the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ throughout the world. Just as Almighty God revealed His truth to His prophets before Christ, He also did the same with selected prophets after Christ's ascension and together these writings present an unbroken and consistent message throughout of God's redemption of all creation and His plans for eternity.
My faith, like your own (even though you claim you base yours on "fact"), is an integral part of my life. What sets Christianity apart from all other faiths/religions is that our redemption/salvation comes to us by the grace of God through faith and that, without faith, it is impossible to please God. We do not earn, merit or deserve heaven because it is not based on what we do for God but on what HE has done for us. All throughout the Tanakh there is a consistent message of God's love, His holiness and His mercy. He promised a redeemer and savior to the cast out occupants of Eden - Adam and Eve - and then through His prophets gave detailed prophecies of how we could recognize Him when He came. Jesus fulfilled them all. There remains a veil of confusion over the eyes of those who refuse to recognize that the Messiah has already come and that He is coming again (soon, I believe).
I will pray that HaShem removes that veil and opens your eyes to the truth that Jesus IS the Messiah, the Christ, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world and that you once again believe He has saved you from your sins.
Quoting the "new testament" to someone who doesn't believe it is just about as useful and quoting the "book of mormon" to a non-mormon.
The Revelation at Sinai is the only self-verifying claim of religious revelation in history. As such, it sits in judgement on all later claims of revelation. That includes chrstianity. If the Torah did not authorize its "fulfillment" at a theoretical time when G-d would (chas vechalilah!) "incarnate" Himself and begin a "new testament," then the "new testament" cannot authorize itself. Neither can J*sus authorize himself. The sure and certain Revelation of G-d sits in judgement on it.
Considering (as I said) the fact that most of our enemies are chrstians ("Blacks and Hispanics"), I fail to see how chrstianity is the answer. It seems everyone has his own version, and on every side of every issue as well.
May it be His Will to enlighten you.
Tell me, what would it take for you to acknowledge that the Tanakh DOES foretell a time and place when God would take on human flesh for the redemption of man? It looks like every Messianic prophecy (300+) that speaks to the specifics is just ignored by your sect, so how can you claim Christians are the ones who are wrong to believe in the Jewish Messiah? We’re using the SAME revelation!
I will continue to pray that that veil of confusion is lifted and the Holy Spirit enlightens you and your fellows.
You might be interested in this
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Americas-Founding-Fathers-and-Judaism
“What was [John] Adams’ point of reference for understanding the Jewish contribution to civilization?
The answer to this question comes in another letter that Adams wrote to an American-Jewish admirer in 1819. In the letter, Adams endorses the return of the Jews to their homeland in Israel.
This proto-Zionist impulse sounds wonderful on the surface – but then Adams explains the reason for it: Once Jews return to the Land of Israel, they will ‘wear away some of the asperities and peculiarities of their character and possibly in time become liberal Unitarian Christians.’”
There you go again.
You aren't paying attention. I keep explaining it to you but you keep ignoring it. How much longer are we going to play ping pong if you won't even address the issue?
You don't believe in chrstianity because of any "messianic prophecy" in the TaNa"KH. You believe in it because your bible contains a "new testament," which you accept implicitly. The "new testament" says that the TaNa"KH is full of prophecies about J*sus, and since you accept its authority from the outset, you then proceed to find them everywhere. If you didn't already believe in the authority of the NT, you wouldn't interpret the TaNa"KH in accordance with its interpretation.
The TaNa"KH is divided into three distinct sections. The first and most important is the Torah. Only the Torah was written directly by G-d Himself; Moses was only a stenographer. The Torah was originally written "974 generations" before the Creation, in "letters of black fire on a scroll of white fire." It is what chrstians call the "logos." The entire creation is derivative of the Torah.
The Nevi'im (Prophets) are a step lower than the Torah. They were not written by G-d Himself. They were written by the Prophets in their own words under the spirit of nevu'ah (prophecy). They are not higher than the Torah, nor do they amend it in any way. If any prophet had ever prophesied that one day the Torah would be "fulfilled" and replaced by something else, he would have been put to death as a false prophet; and certainly his "prophecy" would not have been canonized by the 'Anshei-HaKeneset HaGedolah. Furthermore, many prophecies are conditional; ie, they may be mitigated. One example is the prophecy of Jonah. Jonah declare that Nineveh would be destroyed. He didn't say "unless you repent;" he said it would be destroyed. But the people repented (at least to a certain extent) and HaShem granted them a reprieve.
The Ketuvim (Writings or Hagiographa) is a step lower than the Prophets. It was not written under the spirit of prophecy but under ruach haqodesh (Divine inspiration of "holy spirit"). The prophecies in the Ketuvim are even more conditional than those in the Nevi'im.
In addition to all this, the Nevi'im and Ketuvim are only in the Bible "temporarily." Only the Torah is eternal. The books of the Na"Kh were put there by the 'Anshei-HaKeneset HaGedolah (the Men of the Great Assembly) until Mashiach would come. They are still there because he hasn't. When he does, only the Torah (and the Scroll of Esther) will still be read publicly as Scripture (though this doesn't mean we will lose the others, G-d forbid).
The Torah (from which the Prophets and Writings derive all their authority) warns over and over and over not to deviate from it one iota to the left or to the right. Horrible punishments are prophesied for failing to keep it, and these prophecies have been fulfilled. Not once does the Torah warn about the consequences of "rejecting the messiah." Not once. All punishments are for deviating from the Torah. Parashat Ki-Tavo' (Deuteronomy 26:1-29:8) contains a long portion of warnings precisely about the current Exile. The consequences of deviating from the Torah are blood-curdling. And you want Jews to replace the Torah with something else? Something "new?" The chrstian claim that the Torah is "kept" by violating it and "violated" by keeping it is one of the most oxymoronic and counterintuitive teachings in the religious world. There isn't even a mitzvah (commandment) to "accept the messiah!" Because when he comes it will be obvious; no "faith" will be required. (I also recommend that you read Deuteronomy 13, which many authorities claim is a specific prophecy/warning about the coming of chrstianity.)
Every year just before Shavu`ot I bump this article which explains simply, logically, and irrefutably why no other religion has the absolute certainty that Judaism does. I don't know if you've ever read it, but there it is if you care to. Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi has also refuted chrstianity's claims many times; at one point in a debate with a Catholic priest the latter was forced to admit that he had lost but that his "heart" still told him to be a chrstian. Many of these videos are available on YouTube (though I don't know if that particular one is).
Shall we continue this game of ping pong or shall we just pray for one another?
The 300+ need to be examined one by one. Most of them aren't even prophecies. Some of the big ones for Christians, like Psalm 110 , are based on mistranslations by the gospel writers. The oft-repeated claim of hundreds and hundreds of prophecies is demonstrably false.
THIS is the Messiah. It'll be all over the news, even CNN. ;o) And it can't be stressed enough that the Messiah is not the only difference: atonement, the autonomy of Satan, original sin ...
The Creator of the universe appeared to 3 million people and told them to never worship anything else -- even if a miracle worker says so (Deut 13). The 613 commandments are described as an "everlasting covenant" "for all generations." Adding or subtracting from them is an immediate disqualifier. It's how we know Shabbtai Tzvi wasn't the Messiah either. (Man, that would make a great movie. Who needs fiction?)
Nothing you say can steal my faith from me - like someone apparently did to yours. I know without a doubt that Jesus Christ is my redeemer and God has saved me by His matchless grace through the faith He has planted in my heart. I know that my redeemer lives and I am persuaded that He is able to keep me until the end and I go to be with Him. I also know that it is NOT because I earn, merit or deserve it but because of GRACE - something you have rejected.
I will continue to pray for you because I know it is only too late at death.
One last question,,,why did you post this thread? Was it to discuss Hillary Clinton as the title says or was it to criticize Christians because we don't believe like you do? Why not post a thread in the Religion Forum specifically discussing your Noahide religion?
First of all, I'm not Jewish, so the Torah in its fullness doesn't apply to me. It applies to Jews alone. I (and you and every other non-Jew) am bound by the Noachide Laws.
Second of all, the Perushim (the "Pharisees") were Torah True Jews (the Tzadduqim were not). Chrstianity's attack on them and on their faithfulness to the Divine commandments has come back to bite it in the form of radical antinomian leftists who now refer to conservatives as "Pharisees."
Third, once again you aren't listening. The Torah is the Ultimate and Authoritative Revelation. The "new testament" does not have the authority to pop up and interpret it unless the Torah plainly says it does. It does not, as you well know. I have posted in detail on the authority of the Torah over all other Divine revelation or claimants of Divine revelation, and you persist in quoting the "new testament" as if "anyone with one eye and half sense" could "plainly see" that it is the "continuation" of the TaNa"KH (G-d forbid!). It is only to people who have never known of a bible without it and who have never had a Hebrew Bible that stood alone, as it did for a thousand years before chrstianity existed.
Fourth, by invoking the miracles of J*sus, you engage in hypocrisy. You and I both know that if anyone were to show up, claim to found a new post-chrstian religion, and then "prove" it by miracles that every chrstian in the world would label such miracles "the work of Satan." Furthermore, I just in my last post asked you to read Deuteronomy 13 which plainly states that some miracles are a test from G-d to see if Israel will remain loyal to the Torah. I respect your sincerity, but your completely ignoring that to make the miracles argument really doesn't speak very well of you.
Fifth, you continue to argue against Torah (and Noachide) observance from chrstian assumptions which are not true if chrstianity itself is not true. I may be wrong here, but your argument seems to be the old "you obviously think you can be perfect and sinless because you know good and well that no one who isn't perfect and sinless must be eternally damned unless J*sus were to die in his place." The Torah never demands an impossible perfection. It contains laws, principles, and teachings on repentance for sin. Furthermore, your belief that G-d must damn everyone not as holy as He Himself is (and it is inherently impossible for anything to be as holy as G-d) is a chrstian (especially Protestant) way of painting oneself into a corner so that chrstianity simply "has" to be true. The Jewish teachings on the afterlife are more esoteric than in chrstianity (the exoteric teachings are about laws and observance). You are imposing the eschatology of the "new testament" onto the Hebrew Bible. I don't suppose you would ever take a moment to consider that to argue with me you can't simply spout chrstian teachings as if they were self-evidently true?
Furthermore, to continue part four, it just so happens that until John Calvin, no one ever taught or believed that J*sus' crucifixion was a vicarious eternal damnation creating a legal loophole that is the one and only way to escape damnation. Even Martin Luther didn't believe that. Anselm of Canterbury's "satisfaction" argument, on which it is based, is actually different (and quite disappointing). And before Anselm, there wasn't even a teaching about "satisfaction." Why do you think chrstians spent fifteen hundred years praying, doing penance, performing rituals, etc., and living their entire lives in the fear of hell? Because no one, until Calvin, ever thought that J*sus was a scapegoat. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.
Nothing you say can steal my faith from me - like someone apparently did to yours. I know without a doubt that Jesus Christ is my redeemer and God has saved me by His matchless grace through the faith He has planted in my heart.
Ah, there we go. "Your heart." That is how you "know" religious truth. Can't you see that this is one hundred percent religious subjectivism, which paved the way for indifference and liberalism? One person's "heart" tells him to be a Baptist, another a Pentecostal, and another a Campbellite. Whose "heart" is telling the truth? Or does it not matter? Such a thing is the most subjective and untrustworthy source of religious knowledge!
Do you know what "grace" means? It's a rough translation of the Hebrew term chen meaning worthless or groundless (such as in the phrase sinat chinnam, "groundless hatred"). "Faith" is a translation of the Hebrew 'emunah referring to steadfastness, though in modern Hebrew it is used to indicate belief. As a matter of fact, if you can't read the Bible and must trust in translations by other people, how do you know anything you believe is actually Biblical?
I know that my redeemer lives and I am persuaded that He is able to keep me until the end and I go to be with Him. I also know that it is NOT because I earn, merit or deserve it but because of GRACE - something you have rejected.
There you go with your Reformation argument against Catholicism. This argument has no place here. Unlike chrstianity, which created the "faith vs. works" dichotomy in order to discredit the Torah but then hypocritically created its own commandments and rituals, Judaism has never had to resort to such dishonest arguments. The "faith vs. works" thing among various chrstian groups will never be solved, because it was false from the beginning. The Catholic and Orthodox churches deserved Protestantism because it repeated their own argumments against them--a perfect case of middah keneged middah (measure for measure)!
Finally, you ask why I posted the article. I did so for two reasons: The first is to make the point that we simply cannot allow Hillary Clinton to be elected President. The second is because it is growing very late and all the forces of evil have been loosed on the world. We simply cannot afford false religions any more, especially when everyone knows that Sinai must be valid while no surety exists for any other revelation in history. Furthermore half-way measures will not help. The Fifties aren't coming back. The fifties were flawed to begin with, which is one reason we're in this mess to begin with. The time has come to appeal to the True G-d, and one cannot do that through chrstianity or any other false religion. We cannot please G-d by disobeying Him, and appeals to a false "gxd" are only going to make our punishments worse, G-d forbid.
And as I have remarked in every single post to you (to which you have refused to respond), chrstianity is as much of the problem as it is the solution. White chrstians loudly proclaim chrstianity the only solution, yet we're in this mess largely because of Black and Hispanic chrstians! They are across-the-board Reds on every issue, all while practicing the very same religion conservative chrstians claim is going to save us. What kind of religion is that? Chrstians can't even get along with each other. In fact, they hate each other, each ethnic group adopting J*sus as an ethnic "gxd."
There's only one way to avoid this adaptation of G-d as an ethnic tribal chieftain: and that's to admit that, in the words of the Bible, "G-d is not a man."
Believe it or not, despite my impatience, I didn't post anything to hurt or grieve any one. Surely you concede that if Catholicism and Orthodoxy can use this forum to defend themselves, Judaism, a religion acknowledged by all, logically should have the same privilege.
I see no alternative other than to pray for each other . . . unless you want to go another round. But if so, please do me the courtesy of arguing from the Torah instead of the "new testament," which is the point at issue?
Be well.
Completely disagree. Why would the first century Jewish followers of Jesus - some even members of the religious class - have accepted and believed that Jesus was the Messiah if what you claim is true? Are you saying they didn't know their Scriptures but some modern day people know better? Remember, they had the scrolls IN Hebrew as well as the Greek Septuagint translations.
If you are open to studying this more, may I suggest Messianic Prophecies. You will see:
“But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name” ( John 20:31)
“But all this has taken place that the Scriptures of the prophets may be fulfilled” (Matt. 26:56).
And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” And beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures. (Luke 24:25-27).
Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled” (Luke 24:44).
Do you realize what you're doing? You are "proving" that J*sus fulfilled messianic prophecies by quoting the "new testament." You do see the fallacy in that line of reasoning, I hope? You can't "prove" anything by quoting a book that your opponent rejects. You have to invoke only the books you both believe in common (the Hebrew Bible). Your arguing in this manner is no different than a mormon "proving" the mormon religion to you by quoting the "book of mormon." Do you understand this?
Honestly . . . if you don't understand this simply principle, that invoking the point in dispute is fallacious, then there is no need in your arguing with anyone on this topic.
Get over yourself, ZC! Do you realize that you are disputing the EYE-WITNESS testimony of first century Jews who saw Jesus Christ and heard his words and saw his acts? That IS what the New Testament books primarily provide. If, as you contend, Jesus was NOT who He claimed to be, then why did nearly every single one of His Apostles and followers die horrific deaths because they refused to recant what they KNEW really happened? You make it sound like we should totally trash their writings as concocted myths yet you - by faith - believe every word Moses wrote as well as the prophets of the Jewish people's experience in their history!
I know nothing I say will change your mind - only the Holy Spirit can do that - but who do you think Jesus was? Do you even believe he existed? What of the testimony of believers through the ages, are they all misguided nitwits? You claim you are not Jewish, yet you wear that same veil of confusion against God's anointed - something the Prophets said would be one of the signs of the true Messiah (i.e.; Isaiah 53:3; Psalm 118:22).
You are right that my faith is within my heart - but ALL faith is. Where you err is in thinking yours isn't.
Yes I do. Because if J*sus wasn't authorized by the Torah, then he wasn't authorized by the Torah--period. Once again you invoke miracles you would reject were they offered by a post-chrstian religion. And you still haven't read the thirteenth chapter of Deuteronomy. I can only conclude you're afraid to.
That IS what the New Testament books primarily provide.
Once again, affirmation of the consequent. I give up; you simply don't get it.
If, as you contend, Jesus was NOT who He claimed to be, then why did nearly every single one of His Apostles and followers die horrific deaths because they refused to recant what they KNEW really happened?
And once again (read my lips): it . . . doesn't . . . MATTER. If J*sus wasn't authorized by the Torah, then he wasn't authorized. He could have worked every single miracle attributed to him and it wouldn't make any difference because we go by Sinai, not by miracles. He certainly could not up and authorize himself and be declared the messiah because in hindsight, he must have the authority to negate the Torah even though the Torah didn't say this. I'm sorry.
You make it sound like we should totally trash their writings as concocted myths yet you - by faith - believe every word Moses wrote as well as the prophets of the Jewish people's experience in their history!
If chrstianity isn't authorized by the Torah, then it's a false religion, and the "new testament" is just as wrong as the "sacred book" of every other false religion. Besides, while you may believe in Sinai and Moses only because "they're in the Bible," that isn't why the Jewish people believe in them. They believe them because THEY WERE THERE Perhaps as many as three million people heard the Voice of G-d . . . not some person who claimed to speak in G-d's behalf (or who claimed, chas vechalilah, to "be" G-d). One apologist said it best: Jews believe in the Bible because G-d told them to; chrstians believe in G-d because the Bible tells them to.
I know nothing I say will change your mind - only the Holy Spirit can do that - but who do you think Jesus was? Do you even believe he existed? What of the testimony of believers through the ages, are they all misguided nitwits?
Who do you think Mohammed was? Who do you think Joseph Smith was? Who do you think Guru Nanak was? You believe faithful Jews are misguided nitwits; what's the difference? Other than the fact that they certainlyu know their own Bible better than anyone else.
You claim you are not Jewish, yet you wear that same veil of confusion against God's anointed - something the Prophets said would be one of the signs of the true Messiah (i.e.; Isaiah 53:3; Psalm 118:22).
And here we go again, quoting the Prophets and the Psalms as interpreted by the "new testament", assuming its authority from the outset, and completely ignoring that it is the Torah that is normative and to which all true revelations must defer. You have honestly never read a single word I have been typing here.
You are right that my faith is within my heart - but ALL faith is. Where you err is in thinking yours isn't.
"The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked; who can know it?"
I simply posted an article that contained proselytization for the Noachide Laws. You are the one who chose to be offended and to defend chrstianity only with fallacious reasoning. Chrstians proselytize; are you so surprised that other religions that believe they are true would do the same? Especially the one religion that even chrstians acknowledge as true and from G-d!
Frankly, I am tired of making arguments that you absolutely refuse to deal with. If you're offended, just stop reading. If you feel threatened, then perhaps G-d is pricking at you, trying to open your eyes.
Seeing that you have not read a thing I recommended or digested a single argument I have made, I am through with you.
Good night.
I'm assuming that by Torah you mean the first five books of the Bible written by Moses, then I believe that Jesus was authorized by the Torah. He was also by the rest of the books as well including the Prophets and the Psalms. What you keep refusing to accept is that the WHOLE of Scripture authorizes Him because He is the promised one of which God announced to Eve all the way in the beginning in Genesis 3:15. Your obvious irritation is because I won't accept what you keep wrongly insisting. These 3 million people you claim "heard" the voice of God are all dead now and we only have the written word today. Explain how that word holds more weight than the words written thousands of years after by the people who heard the words of Jesus? Could it be you have FAITH??? BTW...you haven't said who you think Jesus is or how you explain his resurrection from the dead. I believe the SAME God is behind the inspiration for both sets of writings. And because He foretold through the prophets hundreds of times about the true Messiah thousands of years before He came, we can know that Jesus IS the Redeemer because He fulfilled those prophecies. Now, I know you reject Jesus as the Messiah as did your forbears the Pharisees, but I hope you can appreciate the significance of that.
I think I know why you haven't posted an open RF thread to discuss your religion. You don't seem to be able to hear what others say and respect that they CAN disagree with you while acknowledging your arguments. It's easier, I guess, to presume no one reads what you say because we are all too sensitive and easily offended than it is to realize that others have legitimate arguments for why they believe as they do and are not afraid to defend those beliefs. You have failed to convince me. Deal with it.
Christianity has not failed. Perhaps it is more accurate to say individual Christians have failed but not Christianity itself. That would imply Christ was a failure which would be a lie.
These wacky religion threads are always a hoot!
Which is wrong, contrary to the facts and blasphemous. Christ is the promised Messiah, and even if you reject that, the fact is that the Christ of the Scripture which Christians are to look to was Jewish, and prioritized the welfare of the Hebrew people, as did His apostles, and those who most strongly esteem Scripture as the wholly inspired and accurate word of God are the strongest supporters of Israel, and conservative morality. All of which evidence is contrary to your charge.
In addition, posting this on this pro-God forum, whose owner and the overwhelming supporters of it i am sure does not hold your view of Christ as a pagan man-God who will not save anyone - and who support Israel and conservative morality - is exceedingly arrogant.
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