Posted on 08/08/2016 2:14:55 PM PDT by NYer
U.S. Olympian Katie Ledecky is the world record holder in the 400-, 800- and 1500-meter freestyles, and the American record holder in the 500-, 1000- and 1650-yard freestyles.
In the Olympics in Rio de Janeiro, she will compete in the 200-, 400-, and 800-meter freestyle. She has won Gold medals in the 2012 London Olympics and again in the 2016 Rio Olympics.
But before every race Ledecky, a faithful Catholic, offers a Hail Mary. “I do say a prayer – or two – before any race. The Hail Mary is a beautiful prayer and I find that it calms me.” she said.
In an interview with the Catholic Standard Ledecky said “My Catholic faith is very important to me. It always has been and it always will be. It is part of who I am and I feel comfortable practicing my faith. It helps me put things in perspective.”
Actually, I’d be interested to know what your response is to ex-snook’s question: “You don’t have to believe [prayers to Mary are effacious], but why bother others?”
I ask (or repeat ex-snook’s question) because while you are one of the regular anti-Catholics who inhabit these threads, my personal experience with you has been that at least you seem to understand what is asked and/or presented to you in argument and thus respond appropriately. (Of course we Catholics still disagree with your responses but you get the idea I’m sure)
So what’s your reply? Why do you seem to care so much about other Christians’ particular beliefs? What does it matter?
Yes....catholics exhibit that every day on these threads.
Your comment: “Thanks for your note, but you did not prove your case from Scripture.”
It is very clear to me, so I have stated it 3 times: “4The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.”
“The Bible encourages Christians to approach the saints in heaven”
Not once. Not ever in Scripture. (Your comment)
Well here it is: (twice)
In Revelation 5:8 John saw the Lamb, Christ Jesus, on a throne in the midst of four beasts and 24 elders. When the Lamb took the book with the seven seals, the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb in worship, “each one having a harp and golden bowls of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints.”
Similarly, in Revelation 8:3-4 we are told that something similar happened when the Lamb opened the seventh seal of the book: “Another angel came and stood on the altar, having a golden censer, and many incenses were given to him, in order that he will give it with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne. And the smoke of the incenses went up with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.”
The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.
Your comment: “Praying for one another *to God* is different than *praying to each other.* The latter is not commanded.”
Again, your interpretation. We pray to the Saints and the Blessed Mother Mary for their help as members of the Body of Christ as they are with Christ in Heaven as they offer our prayers to God.
Since you agree that we can pray for each other, what is better than to ask the Saints in Heaven to pray for us.
8 When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.
11 I looked again and heard the voices of many angels who surrounded the throne and the living creatures and the elders. They were countless* in number,e
REV 8:3-5
Another angel came and stood at the altar,* holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.c 4The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel. 5Then the angel took the censer, filled it with burning coals from the altar, and hurled it down to the earth. There were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.
You can advise daniel to respond to the specific scripture so that he does not go off with his personal opinion and the false statement of the non believer about the quoted words of Jesus Christ in the Bible that one needs to eat His Body and Blood for eternal life.
“Be more specific.”
It sounds as if you need to do a bit of research, to understand what I posted. Start there.
It’s the Church Of You.
It’s doctrine is whatever you believe.
Do you have your own website for it yet?
It would appear you are not willing to do a small amount of research to understand the Church God, in eternity past, decreed. Your call. It's on you bro.
Got link? Got anything more specific than the Church of You?
we do. But Mary also prays to God for us. Doesn’t hurt to have her on our side.
You surpriseme. You missed the many positive references from St. Paul about “tradition”. Not any old tradition, mind you, but that which comes from the Apostles.
You may want to go to a searchable Bible site, and search the Epistles of Paul using keyword TRADITION.
Let us know what you find. And don’t cherry-pick.
If Mary had her way, Poland would have a lot more medals. ;)
...That is the problem. Instead of trying to find a pre-existing belief, you would be better off going to the Scriptures to see what they actually teach, then believing God.
In Revelation 5:8 John saw the Lamb, Christ Jesus, on a throne in the midst of four beasts and 24 elders. When the Lamb took the book with the seven seals, the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb in worship, “each one having a harp and golden bowls of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints.”
...A brief examination of this passage demonstrates that your claims are not found here.
Incense, which symbolizes the prayers of the saints.
Elders carry the bowls of incense.
They don't pray.
They don't receive prayers. They carry the bowls.
There is no Scriptural statement as to where the prayers come from - other than contextual.
There is no Scriptural statement that the carrier knows the content of the prayers.
There is no Scriptural statement that the carrier was prayed to by Christians on earth.
The Elders carry harps - they do not play them.
The Elders carry incense to symbolize prayers - they do not pray them.
There are exactly 24 Elders who carry out these actions - no saint is mentioned specifically.
The vials of incense symbolize the prayers of God’s people, as they do elsewhere in Scripture (Ps. 141:2; Luke 1:10).
This does not mean that Christians on earth can access believers now in heaven.
Similarly, in Revelation 8:3-4
... exactly. It is similar in that none of your claims are found in this passage. In this instance, it is an angel carrying the incense and prayers. Not a saint.
What is pictured in Revelation is Worship in Heaven of the Lamb of God - not a prayer-forwarding service.
You can advise daniel to respond to the specific scripture so that he does not go off with his personal opinion and the false statement of the non believer about the quoted words of Jesus Christ in the Bible that one needs to eat His Body and Blood for eternal life.
... As it turns out, I can no more advise dear br'er Daniel1212, than I can advise you! I will point out that he actually documented his belief from Scripture, over and over. You have not.
Best to you.
If you're going to claim this, then please do us all the truly great service of posting an official list of Apostolic Traditions and demonstrate that they have existed since the Apostles were on earth. It would be an amazing blessing to finally see this list!
Not meaning this to offend you at all, but I've learned over the decades that if someone doesn't care enough to make minimal effort to educate themselves - even with the amazing power of Google at their fingertips - there is no amount of work I can to to educate them. The simply don't care enough about truth at this moment in their life. Perhaps someday.
When the student is ready, the teacher appears.
and who translated the bible Chapter and Verse, the RCC who kept the bible in print during the middle ages, the RCC when did your church start? 1500 - 1800’s??
Meaning therefore we should submit to Rome, and thus believe what is utterly absent in Scripture? Which argument is as fallacious as arguing that the NT church needed to wholly submit to the Scribes and Pharisees since the Jews wrote and established as Scripture the writings which the the itinerant preachers the church with NT began relied upon.
Likewise fallacious is the premise that the church of Rome is the NT church which wrote the NT, as the former stands in basic contrast to the latter, and that the instruments and stewards of Holy Writ are the infallible interpreters of it, and that formal historical descent establishes validity or is necessary for it. Instead, as told to those who trusted in the former, "God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham," (Matthew 3:9) including men who like Peter, effectually confess saving faith in the Rock upon which the church is built. (petra: Rm. 9:33; 1Cor. 10:4; 1Pet. 2:8; cf. Lk. 6:48; 1Cor. 3:11; lithos: Mat. 21:42; Mk.12:10-11; Lk. 20:17-18; Act. 4:11; Rm. 9:33; Eph. 2:20; 1Pt. 2:4-8; cf. Dt. 32:4, Is. 28:16)
Among many other substantial errors, prayer to created beings in Heaven is nowhere exampled or taught in Scripture
despite the Holy Spirit inspiring the recording of approx. 200 prayers in Scripture, and with multitudes of angels for believers to pray to before the Lord's resurrection, and additional multitudes of ascended OT saints after, there is not one single prayer by any believer to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord. And which is what instruction on prayer to Heaven addresses, (Mt. 6:9) and to whom the Spirit cries ("Abba, Father," not Mama, Mother). And with the risen Lord Jesus being the only Heavenly intercessor, (1Tim. 2:5) and by whom they have direct access into the holy of holies in Heaven, and who is immediately accessible and supremely able to sympathize and enable believers to walk in victory. (Heb. 2:17,18; 4:15,16; 7:25; 10:19) To God be the glory. )
And only God is shown having the ability to hear from Heaven the multitudinous prayers of souls.
The fact that souls prayed to the Lord Jesus (Acts 7:59; 1Co. 1:2) is a testament to His deity, and who is the only heavenly intercessor btwn man and God, (1Tim. 2:5) and who ever lives to do so, (Heb. 7:25) and is immediately directly accessible and uniquely able to enable souls to endure and overcome. (Heb. 2:14-18; 4:14-16)
Moreover, elders and angels offering up prayers as a memorial before the judgment of the earth (Rv. 5:8; 8:3-5) is not that of them being prayed to, nor do human relations on earth equate to a full correspondence btwn heaven and earth.
And unlike with God, personal two-way communication between created beings always required both to be in the same place, even if via a vision.
No offense, but that seems like an obvious dodge to me.
If you have a link or anything more specific, you can provide that. Otherwise it’s just vague pointing to the internet.
You mean that despite what is abundantly evidenced, that writing is not God's supreme means of preservation, and that Scripture is the only substantive, transcendent wholly inspired-of-God body of Truth which, as written, became the transcendent sure and supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the assured Word of God?
And that it did not contain what is necessary for salvation and growth in grace in its formal and material aspects?
If you mean that SS means that only Scripture can be used, or excludes requiring obedience to oral preaching of Scriptural truths, or that Scripture contains all that can be known, or formally provides all that it needed, and disallows the magisterial and teaching office, then i would agree.
But Scripture only consists of and means what Rome (or RCs) says it does. Hence the appeal to the fallacious "we gave you the Bible" polemic.
You forget the command from the Apostle Paul:
And, btw, the RCC did not translate the bible contrary to what is constantly reported. Our Jewish forefathers provided Greek versions followed by others. It has always evolved through time.
What? Very clear to you? Where oh where do you see these beings "offering prayers for the saints on earth"??? As said in refutation, which you blithely ignore in doubling down like a Hillary on you fantasy, Rev. 5:8 and 8:3,4 says that they were offering the prayers OF the saints. And which is not a continuous practice, but which cries will be brought forth in the future as a memorial (cf. Lv. 2:2,15,16; 24:7; Num. 5:15) for the final judgments.
There simply is no "offering prayers for the saints on earth" here, including as a normal postal service, and your disrespectful abuse of Scripture in trying to compel it to support you is an argument against being an RC!
You can advise daniel to respond to the specific scripture so that he does not go off with his personal opinion and the false statement of the non believer about the quoted words of Jesus Christ in the Bible that one needs to eat His Body and Blood for eternal life. Are you so blind that you only see what you want? It is you which has gone off with personal opinion and false statements, while I have contextually and extensively demonstrated the fallacious nature of RC teaching here by the grace of God.
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