Yes Dan, I keep seeing this infernal doctrine of salvation by works here. I don't accept, even for one second, in some sort of "you must wait till you die to see if you pass judgment, and go to Heaven, or fail judgment and go to Hell." Not for a second.
Heaven and Hell, for the rich man and Lazarus, were determined during their lifetimes, not at their deaths. If someone waits till they die, to see if they make it to Heaven, it's virtually an iron clad guarantee they will end up in Hell.
My opinion is, a saved, righteous person appears before the judgment seat of Christ, to receive his rewards. An unsaved, unrighteousness person appears at the great white throne to receive his correct, measured amount of punishment, but their eternal destiny had already been decided during their lives on earth.
Old Testament saints were saved exactly the same way New Testament saints are. By faith. Of course, our definition of faith, and a false religion's definition of faith, are as different as night and day, but maybe that is for a different thread.
I am just not into salvation by works. All it does, is get people into Hell. That, however, is on them.
AF_VET_1967 to 1987
Why do you think we have hymnals full of songs no RCC can sing without violating the very substance of his dogma, which is pride and covetousness. They have covetousness ingrained from infancy for a "salvation" which they are too proud to accept as unearned, offered to them while they were yet totally depraved sin-criminals. So they stay that way and slave that way (but only whenever it suits their confessor), fit only for the everlasting barbecue.
Here's one of my favorite songs of assurance, bearing a truth that they refuse to acknowledge:
"Naught have I gotten but what I received"
Verse 1:
Naught have I gotten but what I received;
Grace hath bestowed it since I have believed;
Boasting excluded, pride I abase;
I’m only a sinner saved by grace!
Chorus:
Only a sinner saved by grace!
Only a sinner saved by grace!
This is my story, to God be the glory,
I’m only a sinner saved by grace!
Verse 2:
Once I was foolish, and sin ruled my heart,
Causing my footsteps from God to depart;
Jesus hath found me, happy my case;
I now am a sinner saved by grace!
Verse 3:
Tears unavailing, no merit had I;
Mercy had saved me, or else I must die;
Sin had alarmed me, fearing God’s face;
But now I’m a sinner saved by grace!
Verse 4:
Suffer a sinner whose heart overflows,
Loving his Savior to tell what he knows;
Once more to tell it, would I embrace—
I’m only a sinner saved by grace!
********
Mark, you know it, and I know it, but who will believe?
Only those who admit that they are worthless, dirty, self-drunken rats, not worth a flyspeck in pepper.
That can't be a Catholic, who was "saved" by infant baptism, and therefore cannot be such a rotten condemned heart-hardened criminal sociopath, can he?
But as for me, I couldn't even have crawled to the Cross; but through the mighty power of the Word, God planted it right in my heart!
Click here to hear the joyous, spiritual melody of the song!
Verse 1:
Alas, and did my Savior bleed?
And did my Sovereign die?
Would He devote that sacred head
For such a worm as I?
Chorus:
At the cross, at the cross where I first saw the light,
And the burden of my heart rolled away,
It was there by faith I received my sight,
And now I am happy all the day!
Verse 2:
Was it for sins that I had done
He groaned upon the tree?
Amazing pity! grace unknown!
And love beyond degree!
Verse 3:
Well might the sun in darkness hide,
And shut His glories in,
When Christ, the mighty Maker, died
For man, His creature’s sin.
Verse 4:
Thus might I hide my blushing face
While His dear cross appears.
Dissolve my heart in thankfulness,
And melt mine eyes to tears.
Verse 5:
But drops of grief can ne’er repay
The debt of love I owe;
Here, Lord, I give myself away,
’Tis all that I can do.
-------
I give myself away
Nothing more; nothing less; nothing else; by faith alone without my own efforts lest I should boast; I am nothing, He is All.
********
The way the RC system basically works is that an RC infant (typically) is made good enough for Heaven via the proper act of sprinkling (effecting "infused charity"), though the requirement for baptism is wholehearted repentant faith, (Acts 2:28; 8:36,37), and the faith behind baptism/obedience is what effect purifying the heat, (Acts 15:9) while neither being innocent or cleansed translates to perfection of character and overcomes the attachment to sin of the flesh. (Rm. 8:7) And which requires the testing that this life affords, but which perfection is one of the reasons given for Rome's purgatory, besides atoning for sins they did not sufficiently atone for on earth.
And since the average Catholic does not possess that baptismal state at death then the majority must go to purgatory until they once again become good enough to enter Heaven (and atone for sins).
Which is basically salvation under the Law, but with more grace given so that one may practically become good enough for Heaven, in contrast to being declared righteous by faith, (Rm. 4:5,6) and made accepted in the Beloved on His account, (Eph. 1:6) with immediate spiritual access now into the holy of holies, (Heb. 10:19) and being forever with the Lord at death or His return, (2 Corinthians 5:8; Phil. 1:23,24; 1Thes. 4:17; Acts 7:59) and with the next transformative event in conformity to Christ after this life being that receiving our "house from Heaven" at the Lord's return.
And at which time is the only postmortem suffering for the believer, that of the judgment seat of Christ, that being the suffering of the lost of rewards based on the manner of workmanship one built the church with, with every believer being rewarded "according to his own labor, " even though they are already with the Lord.
After which will follow the great white throne judgment (which the elect assist in), in which the lost which be sentenced according to their works, even though they are already in Hell. See here on 1Co. 3:8ff by the grace of God.
Thus, faced with the reality that the particular judgment awaits the Lord's return, and thus eliminates the 1Cor. 3 from being purgatory, then the RC, if he is bound to defend his church no matter what the cost to credulity, is driven to actually contend that the Lord's return - which is a distinct event in Scripture, and required for the particular judgment such as Lk. 12:32-48 (invoked to support purgatory) speaks of, can be said to be when one dies. Which is simply another example of Cath abuse of Scripture, forcing it to support Rome as a servant, not its master.
And thus such unreasonable devotees can render themselves unfit for more present attempts to bring them to acknowledge the manifest Truth.
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; (2 Timothy 2:25)