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To: daniel1212

The devil in his pride thought to triumph by independent thought. He tried to reason apart from God’s authority and fell into his own trap.

In his rage he fell to earth and wished to destroy God’s prized possession, His creatures made in His own image.

So what devices does the devil use to ensnare us? One key device is independence from one another, and his most successful innovation along those lines is causing religious persons to trust not another and be not mentored or under any others’ authority, and the chief-est accomplishment along those lines is the protestant mind.

That in contrast to the interdependence found in the one true Catholic faith, as we have argued continuously here, is the trust in the authority God established and maintains in our very midst today.

Is God unable to continue in our very midst His presence in the consecrated bread and wine?

Is God unable to maintain His authority as was held be the apostles personally toward others on earth today as He did then?

Perhaps deep inside you doubt God is powerful enough to do so.

The passages from 2 PETER - Chapter 1 follow with Haydock commentary (commentary authorized by the Church of today but not authorized by d1212) to illustrate this disparity:

Ver. 20. No prophecy of the scripture is made by private interpretation; or, as the Protestants translate it from the Greek, is of any private interpretation, i.e. is not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit. (Witham) -— The Scriptures cannot be properly expounded by private spirit or fancy, but by the same spirit wherewith they were written, which is resident in the Church.

Ver. 21. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time. This is to shew that they are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment, because every part of the holy Scriptures is delivered to us by the divine spirit of God, wherewith the men were inspired who wrote them; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the spirit of God, which he left, and promised to his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Our adversaries may perhaps tell us, that we also interpret prophecies and Scriptures; we do so; but we do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, they without it. (Witham)


1,046 posted on 01/18/2017 5:06:10 PM PST by Repent and Believe (The Son of Man, when He cometh, shall He find, think you, faith on earth? Jesus Christ (Luke 18:8))
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To: Repent and Believe

You are mistaken in so many ways ... but you’re proud of it!


1,047 posted on 01/18/2017 5:17:13 PM PST by MHGinTN (A dispensational perspective is a powerful tool for spiritual discernment)
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To: Repent and Believe
The devil in his pride thought to triumph by independent thought.

Which response adds to your continual run of sophistry. It is you who are independent from the larger body of Catholicism, and are like a tiny cult based upon your independent group's interpretation of what valid church teaching is! And which presumption is contrary to a multitude of papal teachings that was showed you.

So what devices does the devil use to ensnare us? One key device is independence from one another, and his most successful innovation along those lines is causing religious persons to trust not another and be not mentored or under any others’ authority, and the chief-est accomplishment along those lines is the protestant mind. That in contrast to the interdependence found in the one true Catholic faith, as we have argued continuously here, is the trust in the authority God established and maintains in our very midst today.

What bombast! Here you speak of Prots trusting not another and not being mentored or under any others’ authority, while your tiny cult rejects the pope of Rome, having begun with four priests expelled from the SSPX sect. Meanwhile, evangelicals are the most unified major religious group in basic beliefs, and typically esteem their pastors, and have produced famous commentaries.

That in contrast to the interdependence found in the one true Catholic faith

Interdependence? Mormons show more, while you reject the larger body of Catholicism and your independent interdependence is only btwn a very few churches.

Is God unable to continue in our very midst His presence in the consecrated bread and wine?

It is time you learned how to read. Deal with what has been provided you time and again.

The passages from 2 PETER - Chapter 1 follow with Haydock commentary (commentary authorized by the Church of today but not authorized by d1212) to illustrate this disparity: Ver. 20. No prophecy of the scripture is made by private interpretation; or, as the Protestants translate it from the Greek, is of any private interpretation, i.e. is not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit. (Witham) -— The Scriptures cannot be properly expounded by private spirit or fancy, but by the same spirit wherewith they were written, which is resident in the Church.

Which wresting of Scripture actually condemns Haydock and you, for this text is not even speaking of interpreting Scripture, but contextually refers to how prophecies were given, as men were moved by the Holy Ghost, and does not refer to understanding them as private persons, which souls whom the Spirit calls "noble" did, subjecting the preaching of the very apostles to testing by Scripture! (Acts 17:11)

And as said, rather than necessarily having to rely on the historical magisterium to know what is of God, it was because common people correctly discerned what was of God that the church began.

But while the use of reason is involved in understanding Scripture, prophecy in particular is not a product of formulation, but as Peter also said,

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (1 Peter 1:10-11)

1,049 posted on 01/18/2017 5:56:20 PM PST by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: Repent and Believe
The devil in his pride thought to triumph by independent thought. He tried to reason apart from God’s authority and fell into his own trap.

You are conflating two very different things. Everyone here would probably agree that independence of thought is bad if it's independence from God. But independence of thought from bad influences, like false teachers for example? We MUST have that kind of independence, because that is how we walk in the light, even as He is in the light.

So what devices does the devil use to ensnare us? One key device is independence from one another, and his most successful innovation along those lines is causing religious persons to trust not another and be not mentored or under any others’ authority, and the chief-est accomplishment along those lines is the protestant mind.

A statement like this seems to expose a complete lack of real world experience with evangelicals/protestants. I've been a Protestant/evangelical my whole life. We argue about some things, true. But the vast majority of those who adhere to Scripture really are unified on a great many things. I can go (as I once did with my dad) to a little store-front church in Tijuana, Mexico, or a little Baptist outfit on Chicago's south side or a big cozy non-denominal Bible church in the suburbs and the doctrinal agreement will be almost 100%, AND there will be a unity of understanding how that plays out in life, chasity, respect for life and property, all the virtues and graces we call Christian.

Bottom line, having a whole lot of people adhere to Scripture is NOT a good outcome for Satan, because it does foster spiritual unity and a very broad and solid Christian interconnectedness. In my own Baptist church, we pray every Sunday morning for our brothers and sisters engaged in Gospel ministry all over Springfield, regardless of denominational labels and history. We don't need the false comfort of paper unity when we have the beating heart of true unity in the body of Christ.

Is God unable to continue in our very midst His presence in the consecrated bread and wine?

God is unable to deny His own nature. He is the founder of rationality and a sound mind. Transubstantiation is not miraculous. It is a verbal sleight of hand, a regression to debunked neoplatonic theories of being that have no place in Christian faith. Jesus defined the premise of his presence with us, not in the Eucharist, but in the assembly of believers with one another, for wherever two or three are gathered in His name, He is there in the midst of them. Period. No extra stuff needed.

As for your reference to 2 Peter 1:20, it is a much abused Scripture, and in no way makes the point you seem to think it does. Peter is not talking about the readers of Scripture but the writers. The verb is ginomai, a verb that describes not something that simply exists, but something that is coming into being. Paraphrased, no Scripture came into being through someone's private undertsanding, but it came into being as God moved holy men through the Holy Spirit to write it. This passage provides no excuse for blind following of any human institution. Sorry.

Peace,

SR
1,057 posted on 01/18/2017 8:17:30 PM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Repent and Believe; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; boatbums; CynicalBear; daniel1212; dragonblustar; ...
The devil in his pride thought to triumph by independent thought. He tried to reason apart from God’s authority and fell into his own trap.

That is NOT why the devil fell.

It wasn't independent thought. It was trying to elevate himself above God.

Angels and men are not mindless automons only doing what they are programmed to do.

If you are seeking to justify mindless submission to the RCC by that kind of reasoning, you have just failed.

You have only built a stronger case against it.

For what reason would anyone ever want to turn over the fate of their eternal souls to an organization as corrupt and immoral as the RCC.

Pretty weird reasoning from the crowd that trumpets free will so much.

1,061 posted on 01/19/2017 12:58:06 AM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Repent and Believe
Is God unable to continue in our very midst His presence in the consecrated bread and wine?

Your premise is wrong.

You are starting with the presumption that He already is present in our midst in the form of the host.

So your question is irrelevant because you can't prove your initial premise.

Catholics are really big on the *God can do anything* meme, but they are wrong there as well. God cannot do *anything*.

Another false premise Catholicism builds their hopes on and their shaking doctrine. Just more sinking sand.

1,062 posted on 01/19/2017 1:01:28 AM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Repent and Believe
The devil in his pride thought to triumph by independent thought. He tried to reason apart from God’s authority and fell into his own trap.

Sort of like you in rejecting Catholicism as it stands today.

YOUR college of cardinals elected YOUR pope to office.

According to your own churches teachings you MUST submit to their authority or you are in schism and have ex-communicated yourself.

St. Thomas Aquinas: It is also shown that to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is necessary for salvation. For Cyril says in his Thesaurus: “Therefore, brethren, if we imitate Christ so as to hear his voice remaining in the Church of Peter and so as not be puffed up by the wind of pride, lest perhaps because of our quarrelling the wily serpent drive us from paradise as once he did Eve.” And Maximus in the letter addressed to the Orientals [Greeks] says: “The Church united and established upon the rock of Peter’s confession we call according to the decree of the Savior the universal Church, wherein we must remain for the salvation of our souls and wherein loyal to his faith and confession we must obey him.” — St. Thomas Aquinas, Against the Errors of the Greeks, Pt. 2, ch. 36
http://dhspriory.org/thomas/ContraErrGraecorum.htm#b38

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam: (Promulgated November 18, 1302) “We declare, say, define, and pronounce [ex cathedra] that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

"If, therefore, the Greeks or others say that they are not committed to Peter and to his successors, they necessarily say that they are not of the sheep of Christ, since the Lord says that there is only one fold and one shepherd (Jn.10:16). Whoever, therefore, resists this authority, resists the command of God Himself. " — Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (Promulgated November 18, 1302)
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html

Pius 9, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore: “Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff..”
-http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanto.htm

Pope Pius IX, Amantissimus: “There are other, almost countless, proofs drawn from the most trustworthy witnesses which clearly and openly testify with great faith, exactitude, respect and obedience that all who want to belong to the true and only Church of Christ must honor and obey this Apostolic See and Roman Pontiff." Pope Pius IX, Amantissimus (On The Care Of The Churches), Encyclical promulgated on April 8, 1862, # 3.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/P9AMANT2.HTM

You are in a world of hurt according to the statements made your your own church officials.

1,063 posted on 01/19/2017 1:08:52 AM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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