4 Books That Made a Priest Leave the Church

CCC Discover ^ | May 24, 2017 | Nicholas Davis

[Songcraft]

Do you not distinguish between the official teachings of an organization, and the practices of some of its members? There is a vast difference between the two.

If you were to reject membership in all denominations which have homosexual members, you would very likely not belong to any of them, as there are mostly likely some homos in all of them.

[Salvation]

“According to Catholic doctrine, the proximate criterion of the Biblical canon is the infallible decision of the Church. This decision was not given until rather late in the history of the Church (at the Council of Trent). Before that time there was some doubt about the canonicity of certain Biblical books, i.e., about their belonging to the canon.” (The New Catholic Encyclopedia, McGraw Hill, Copyright 1967, Volume 3, “Canon, Biblical”, p. 29)

[ealgeone]

5My soul, wait in silence for God only, For my hope is from Him.

6He only is my rock and my salvation, My stronghold; I shall not be shaken.

7On God my salvation and my glory rest; The rock of my strength, my refuge is in God.

8Trust in Him at all times, O people; Pour out your heart before Him; God is a refuge for us.

Psalm 62:5-8 NASB

The single focus on relying upon God, and only God, for salvation, refuge and prayer is clearly noted in this passage.

[amihow]

As I remember, I questioned his hubris, not his credentials

[ealgeone]

“According to Catholic doctrine, the proximate criterion of the Biblical canon is the infallible decision of the Church. This decision was not given until rather late in the history of the Church (at the Council of Trent). Before that time there was some doubt about the canonicity of certain Biblical books, i.e., about their belonging to the canon.” (The New Catholic Encyclopedia, McGraw Hill, Copyright 1967, Volume 3, “Canon, Biblical”, p. 29)

Trent would have been the perfect time for Roman Catholicism to incorporate all of the writings they base their "Sacred Tradition" upon as Canon at Trent.

That they didn't is telling.

[amihow]

I would like to discuss this with you. It is late and one figer typing makes for lots of mistakes.

If you would contact me privately, maybe we could do better tomorrow.

[Governor Dinwiddie]

#18: "Can you tell me what Martin Luther had to do with King Henry the 8th?"

In 1521 Henry the 8th published a book attacking Luther and his ideas. He referred to Luther as "a venomous serpent, a pernicious plague". For this Pope Leo X awarded Henry the title "Fidei defensor" defender of the faith.

Much later, during the time of Henry's marriage problems, Henry the 8th's spiritual adviser was Thomas Cranmer, whom he appointed Archbishop of Canterbury.

Thomas Cranmer had been previously appointed ambassador to the court of Holy Roman Emperor Charles the 5th. During his travels in Europe Cranmer came in contact the the reformers, who might be called the Lutheran reformers.

Upon return to England Cranmer brought back the ideas of Luther's reforms. Subsequently Henry the 8th received these ideas favorably.

With Henry's encouragement, Cranmer wrote the famous Book of Common Prayer which incorporates the Lutheran Augsberg Confession as the basis for the Anglican 39 Articles of Faith. To this day, these 39 articles can be found in the prayer books located in every pew of every Anglican (and Episcopal Church). They are the Anglican confession of belief.

A close reading of the Articles not only reveals its Lutheran roots but also a strong Calvinist influence too.

Henry, a theologian in his own right, had been aware and conversant with Luther's ideas. Certainly his spirtual advisor Thomas Cranmer would have counseled him on this very matter.

And those attacking Luther as a flawed man is hardly an argument. We are all flawed. As Paul reminded us in Romans 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."

[af_vet_1981]

Then there was the fifth book, perhaps the most antisemitic book ever written. Germany implemented Luther's seven point plan and worked out his reformer's hatred with a vengeance.

He may have been just a fallen soul, like King Henry VIII, held under some restraint, until all restraints were removed and each re-formed Christianity in his own image, Henry to be the epitome of the English King with no boundaries, a murdering adulterer, and Luther to be the consummate German antisemite who wrote down his hatred for posterity while presuming to choose which books were and were not holy. The following are excerpts from Luther's work entitled "The Jews & their Lies":

"What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly ­ and I myself was unaware of it ­ will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], "You are Peter," etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

Fifth, I advise that safe­conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (...remainder omitted).

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.

Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

* * *

But what will happen even if we do burn down the Jews' synagogues and forbid them publicly to praise God, to pray, to teach, to utter God's name? They will still keep doing it in secret. If we know that they are doing this in secret, it is the same as if they were doing it publicly. for our knowledge of their secret doings and our toleration of them implies that they are not secret after all and thus our conscience is encumbered with it before God.

* * *

Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:

First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss in sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire. That would demonstrate to God our serious resolve and be evidence to all the world that it was in ignorance that we tolerated such houses, in which the Jews have reviled God, our dear Creator and Father, and his Son most shamefully up till now but that we have now given them their due reward.

* * *

I wish and I ask that our rulers who have Jewish subjects exercise a sharp mercy toward these wretched people, as suggested above, to see whether this might not help (though it is doubtful). They must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in, proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them, as Moses did in the wilderness, slaying three thousand lest the whole people perish. They surely do not know what they are doing; moreover, as people possessed, they do not wish to know it, hear it, or learn it. There it would be wrong to be merciful and confirm them in their conduct. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs, so that we do not become partakers of their abominable blasphemy and all their other vices and thus merit God's wrath and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Now let everyone see to his. I am exonerated."

[boatbums]

“But a most pernicious error widely prevails that Scripture has only so much weight as is conceded to it by the consent of the church. As if the eternal and inviolable truth of God depended upon the decision of men!”- John Calvin

“The Scriptures obtain full authority among believers only when men regard them as having sprung from heaven, as if there the living words of God were heard.”- John Calvin

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Do you not distinguish between the official teachings of an organization, and the practices of some of its members?”

This is known homosexuality - AT THE VATICAN - and known about by Popes and not eliminated.

Theoretical teaching has little effect when it is ignored by the people in charge.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“According to Catholic doctrine,”

That there’s yer problem ma’am. All that clunkin’ sound and knockin’ is coming cause yer puttin’ the wrong fuel in yer vehicle!”

[Salvation]

I will pray for you.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

That’d be great! Thanks.

I’ve prayed for you many times.

[boatbums]

As I remember, I questioned his hubris, not his credentials

No, you questioned Luther's credentials when you initially asked:

I argue from logic. Can you tell me where , in the authentic teachings of the Catholic Church any of Luther’s accusations were taught? I think people, including Luther think much of what as spoken as opinion by some Catholics were authentic and infallible teachings when they were not.

He disputed the teachings of the church on indulgences and Purgatory - things that were part of the official teachings and actions associated with those teachings. If Luther didn't know "official" teachings, then no one did.

[amihow]

If Luther thought indulgences as practiced in his lifetime were Church teaching, he did not understand the teaching.

As practiced, they were against the teaching.

Purgatory has Scriptural and Traditional and logical bases.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Purgatory has Scriptural and Traditional and logical bases.”

It has none of these in Christianity.

It does have a pagan traditional background.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

http://www.equip.org/article/is-purgatory-a-biblical-concept/

[Songcraft]

"Try the LCMS; we remain faithful.

That's what all these other Lutheran denominations claim too!     :)

(I don't think they all agree on their teachings, otherwise there would be only one united denomination, wouldn't there?)

If you do a quick search, you can find this list of Lutheran denominations, and it appears that there is a lot of diversity in their teachings.

LINK:  "List of Lutheran denominations"

List of Lutheran denominations
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"This is a list of Lutheran denominations grouped by affiliation with international Lutheran bodies. The denominations' relative size is not evident from this list. The list may not be comprehensive, but intends to be an accessible overview of the diversity and global scope of modern Lutheranism. This list does not include groups that have been merged into other groups, e.g. Hauge Synod, nor groups that have become defunct, e.g. Eielsen Synod."

Lutheran World Federation

Batak Christian Protestant Church (Indonesia)
Bolivian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Christian Lutheran Church of Honduras
Church of Denmark (Evangelical Lutheran Church in Denmark)
Church of Iceland (Evangelical Lutheran Church of Iceland)
Church of Norway (Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway)
Church of Sweden
Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Ethiopian Evangelical Church Mekane Yesus (EECMY)
Evangelical Church of Augustan Confession in Romania
Evangelical Church of Augsburg Confession in Poland
Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Slovakia
Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Slovenia
Evangelical Church of the Lutheran Confession in Brazil
Evangelical Church in the Republic of Croatia
Evangelical Community Church-Lutheran
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Bavaria
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Chile
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Ecuador
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Guyana
Evangelical-Lutheran Church in Hungary
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jordan and the Holy Land
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Kenya
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Namibia (ELCIN)
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Namibia (ELCIN - GELC)
Evangelical Lutheran Church in the Republic of Namibia (ELCRN)
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan and Central Asia
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Southern Africa
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Southern Africa (Cape Church)
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Suriname
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tanzania
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Thailand (ELCT)
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Thuringia
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Venezuela
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Colombia
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Ghana
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Hanover
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Hong Kong
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Ingria in Russia
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Papua New Guinea
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church of Norway (Associate member)
Evangelical Lutheran State Church of Brunswick
Evangelical Lutheran State Church of Mecklenburg
India Evangelical Lutheran Church
Japan Evangelical Lutheran Church
Japan Lutheran Church (associate member)
Lanka Lutheran Church
Lutheran Church in Chile
Lutheran Church in Great Britain
Lutheran Church in the Philippines
Lutheran Church of Australia (associate member)
The Lutheran Church of Senegal
Lutheran Costa Rican Church
Lutheran Evangelical Church in Italy
Malagasy Lutheran Church (Madagascar)
Mexican Lutheran Church
Nicaraguan Lutheran Church of Faith and Hope
North Elbian Evangelical Church
Protestant Church of Augsburg Confession of Alsace and Lorraine
Salvadoran Lutheran Church
Silesian Evangelical Church of Augsburg Confession
United Evangelical Lutheran Church (Argentina, Uruguay)

United and uniting churches with Lutheran roots

Evangelical Church in Germany
Protestant Church in the Netherlands
Tamil Evangelical Lutheran Church (TELC) (India)
United Church of Christ (United States)
United Protestant Church of France

International Lutheran Council

American Association of Lutheran Churches (AALC)
China Evangelical Lutheran Church
Christian Evangelical Lutheran Church of Bolivia
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Kenya
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Peru
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Argentina
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Brazil
Evangelical Lutheran Church of England
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Ghana
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Haiti
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Ingria in Russia
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Paraguay
Evangelical Lutheran Church of the Republic of Chile
Evangelical Lutheran Church—Synod of France and Belgium
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church of Denmark
Free Evangelical Lutheran Synod in South Africa
Gutnius Lutheran Church
Independent Evangelical-Lutheran Church
India Evangelical Lutheran Church
Japan Lutheran Church
Lanka Lutheran Church
Lutheran Church–Canada
Lutheran Church—Hong Kong Synod
Lutheran Church in Korea
Lutheran Church in the Philippines
Lutheran Church in Singapore and Malaysia
Lutheran Church in Southern Africa
Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod
Lutheran Church of Australia (associate member)
Lutheran Church of Guatemala
Lutheran Church of Nigeria
Lutheran Church of Venezuela
Lutheran Ministerium and Synod – USA
Lutheran Synod of Mexico

Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference

All Saints Lutheran Church of Nigeria
Bulgarian Lutheran Church
Christ the King Lutheran (Nigeria)
Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Church (Mexico)
Confessional Lutheran Church (Latvia)
Evangelical Church of Czech Brethren (Czech Republic)
Evangelical Lutheran Church "Concord" (Russia)
Evangelical Lutheran Confessional Church (Finland)
Evangelical Lutheran Confessional Church (Puerto Rico)
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church (Germany) (Germany)
Evangelical Lutheran Synod of Australia
Evangelical Lutheran Synod (Peru)
Evangelical Lutheran Synod - United States
Gereja Lutheran Indonesia
The Lutheran Church of Cameroon
Lutheran Church of Central Africa Malawi Conference
Lutheran Church of Central Africa Zambia Conference
Lutheran Confessional Church (Sweden and Norway)
Lutheran Evangelical Christian Church (Japan)
Ukrainian Lutheran Church
Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (United States)

Evangelical Catholic

Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church
Association of Independent Evangelical Lutheran Churches
Evangelical Catholic Church
Evangelical Marian Catholic Church
Lutheran Episcopal Communion
Lutheran Church-International (formerly International Lutheran Fellowship)
The Lutheran Orthodox Church

Unaffiliated Lutheran denominations

Alliance of Renewal Churches (ARC)
American Lutheran Synod (ALS)
Apostolic Lutheran Church of America
Apostolic Lutheran Church of Myanmar
Association of Free Lutheran Congregations
Augsburg Lutheran Churches (ALC)
Australian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Brotherhood of Popular Pastoral Action - Lutheran Coordination (Panama)
Canadian Association of Lutheran Congregations
China Lutheran Gospel Church
Chinese Lutheran Brethren Church
Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America
Church of the Lutheran Brethren of Chad
Church of the Lutheran Confession (CLC)
Concordia Lutheran Church (Sweden)
Concordia Lutheran Conference
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Augsburg Confession in Russia
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Congo EELC-Brazzaville
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Côte d'Ivoire
Evangelical Lutheran Church on the Faroe Islands
Evangelical Lutheran Church of the Gambia
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Guinea
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Sudan
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Togo
Evangelical Lutheran Conference & Ministerium of North America (ELCM)
Evangelical Lutheran Congregations of the Reformation (Australia)
Evangelical Lutheran Diocese of North America (ELDoNA)
Evangelical Lutheran Mission (Liberia)
Federation of Lutheran Churches in Middle Germany
Good Samaritan Evangelical Lutheran Church (India)
Iglesia Luterana Sínodo de Nicaragua
Istanbul Lutheran Church (Turkey)
Japan Lutheran Brethren Church
Kosovo Protestant Evangelical Church
Laestadian Lutheran Church
Laos Evangelical Lutheran Church
Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tamil Nadu
Lutheran Alliance of Churches in renovation (ALIA) - Brazil
Lutheran Church of Cameroon
Lutheran Church of Central Africa (Malawi & Zambia)
Lutheran Church of Eritrea
Lutheran Church of Ethiopia
The Lutheran Church of India
Lutheran Church of New Zealand
The Lutheran Church of the Republic of China
Lutheran Church of Togo
Lutheran Churches of the Reformation (LCR)
Lutheran Churches of the Reformation in Nigeria
Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ (USA)
Lutheran Ministerium and Synod - USA
Lutheran Mission in Thailand (LMT)
North American Lutheran Church (US and Canada)
North Western Gossner Evangelical Lutheran Church (India)
Old Apostolic Lutheran Church
Old Lutheran Church (Asia)
Siberian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Tagakaulo Lutheran Church of Christ in the Philippines
United Lutheran Mission Association (ULMA) (USA)

[Songcraft]

You and I do not know what any other person on this earth knows. (We can't read other people's minds.)

Also, keep in mind that if all the sinners were to be expelled from all the denominations in the world, there would not be one person left in any of the denominations (including yours), as "All have sinned...".

So, what do you propose should be done with sinners in a given denomination?

And if we have learned anything from Trump's short presidency so far, it is that many of the public charges against him as a leader have turned out to be proven false, and there have been a great number of "fake news" stories presented about him already. It is not wise to believe everything you encounter in the press or on the internet.

(Another thing to keep in mind is that God always knew there would be some bad "shepherds" in His "pasture", and promised that they will have a bleak future to look forward to. "Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of My pasture!" declares the Lord.  Jeremiah 23:1.)

(I have to wish you goodnight now. Please pray for me, and I'll pray for you.)

[amihow]

Sorry. Legitimate argumentation cannot be made on basis that one rejects the original Canon nor because they differently interpret historical interpretations.