Jewish Allegiance To God After the Holocaust Has No Precedent

The Algemeiner ^ | October 5, 2017 | Shmuley Boteach

[HarleyD]

Yes but they have been punished more than once and they have been scattered into many nations but they are still here.

Just as God told them through Isaiah:

Isa 27:7-8 Has he struck them [Israel] as he struck those [other nations] who struck them? Or have they been slain as their slayers were slain? Measure by measure, by exile you contended with them; he removed them with his fierce breath in the day of the east wind.

The Canaanites, Philistines Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, etc. have all struck the Jews but yet the Jews remain while other nations are either long gone or diminished. However, due to Israel's unfaithfulness, a new vineyard has been planted by the Lord. (Compare Ish 5 to Ish 27 and John 15)

[af_vet_1981]

Yes, chosen to bring forth Jesus Christ, the Messiah. After that "there is no Jew, there is no Greek". There are only those who believe in Christ and those who don't.

No, there are still men and women on this earth, believing and not believing that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God. Similarly, there are still bond and free, and Jew and Greek (Gentile).

Perhaps Galatians was written in 48 and First Corinthians in 53–55

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Galatians, Catholic chapter three, Protestant verse twenty eight
First Corinthians, Catholic chapter ten, Protestant verse thirty two,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[af_vet_1981]

Yes, chosen to bring forth Jesus Christ, the Messiah. After that "there is no Jew, there is no Greek". There are only those who believe in Christ and those who don't.

No, there are still men and women on this earth, believing and not believing that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God. Similarly, there are still bond and free, and Jew and Greek (Gentile).

Perhaps Galatians was written in 48 and First Corinthians in 53–55

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Galatians, Catholic chapter three, Protestant verse twenty eight
First Corinthians, Catholic chapter ten, Protestant verse thirty two,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[boatbums]

The very fact of Israel and the Jewish people’s continued existence in spite of thousands of years of captivity, persecution, genocide and adversity proves that God is real and He is the one, true God - Lord of lords and King of kings. He has not forsaken His people of promise and STILL has plans for them. Their return to their homeland and its blossoming as a rose from a being a desert are fulfillments of ancient prophecy. I continually pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

[boatbums]

Seems to me I read somewhere that God said, “These are my chosen people, and I am the Lord.” I think that one fact accounts for the worldwide jealousy against the Jews.

It's not like God played eeny, meeny, miny, moe and landed on the Jewish people, though. It started with Abraham who came from Ur of the Chaldees and his seeking to know the true God. Because of his faith, God made a covenant and promised that through him all nations of the earth would be blessed and his progeny would be as numberless as the sands of the sea. From Abraham came Isaac, then Jacob and his twelve sons who became the twelve tribes of Israel (Jacob's name was changed to "Israel" (Genesis 32:28). This is the great nation that is the chosen of the LORD. The jealousy and hatred of them is certainly not only because of this special relationship with God but also is spurred by the evil one (Satan) who wants to utterly destroy them. He will never be successful as God has always had a remnant.

[captmar-vell]

“And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.” Genesis 22:8

There were no shortage of ‘gods’ at that time that required and received human sacrifices from their believers,

Abraham’s great work, his spiritual stronghold which he built for this world was that he knew that even if he did sacrifice his Son as requested, he knew that he would be restored to him and that they would both return together, he absolutely knew it and believed it and trusted his God, and that is what we ALL owe to Abraham,

Read the fine print: God will provide himself

[ravenwolf]

However, due to Israel’s unfaithfulness, a new vineyard has been planted by the Lord.

---

That is true.

[SJackson]

Middle East and terrorism, occasional political and Jewish issues Ping List. High Volume

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..................

[Read Write Repeat]

chag sameach

[boatbums]

However, due to Israel’s unfaithfulness, a new vineyard has been planted by the Lord. That is true.

A "new" vineyard or grafted-in branches to the same vine?

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. (Romans 11:-11-32)

[af_vet_1981]

... new vineyard ...

Cannot find "new vineyard" in the scriptures, yet there is this ...

The Vineyard Movement traces its history back to the mid-seventies and John Wimber took leadership of the young group of churches around 1982. The history of the Vineyard has been documented in Jackson’s The Quest for the Radical Middle as well as a bit in Carol Wimber’s John Wimber: The Way it Was. Others have written histories and I’m sure the future will produce many more.

I first attended a Vineyard when I was around twelve years old, the Smoky Hill Vineyard, led by Greg Thompson (check out his blog). Throughout the years I’ve attended several Vineyards in California and Minnesota. About five years ago I and the other pastors of Trinity Christian Fellowship began to explore adopting into the Vineyard and in August of 2013, our church became an official Vineyard church. That’s the short version of a very long and interesting process that I’ll probably write about someday.

So I’ve been in the Vineyard movement for the majority of my life and have likely read just about every book on the Vineyard or written by Vineyard affiliated pastors and theologians as well as any of the critical evaluations of the Vineyard. I’m not new to the Vineyard, though I’m a newly minted Vineyard pastor, technically speaking. I currently am involved in the Small Town USA partnership with Multiply Vineyard and help with some of the website work for the Society of Vineyard Scholars. Point being: I am all in. I love the Vineyard, though I’m aware it is not a perfect movement. But I do love it and see myself as a part of it for the rest of my life.

Now that the Vineyard is over thirty years old and has been influenced by both mainstream Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism and the Charismatic Movement, it’s safe to say that there is quite a bit of diversity. I’m not opposed to diversity and think it is only healthy that our movement recognizes that Christians have differed on theological views. Some of those differences, however, would prevent some from being able to identify with the theology and practices found within the Vineyard. In the same way that some views would prevent one from identifying with Christianity, some theological views would prevent one from identifying with the Vineyard. For example, if one were to state that the doctrine of the Trinity wasn’t true, I’d suggest they cannot claim the banner of Christianity. To be Christian is to be Trinitarian. Others may disagree with that, and I’m sure some will disagree with some of my observations and opinions in this series on Vineyard theology. Everyone is welcome to their opinion and perhaps this will serve more as a discussion starter… ha ha!

[HarleyD]

I never knew there was a “Vineyard” movement but it doesn’t surprise me. People have to start all sorts of things. It is interesting from your post that they accept all theological views except the ones they disagree with. Ah, ecumenticalism!!! Toss doctrine out the window for the sake of love, love, love.

Reviewing the passages, “new vineyard” was probably an inaccurate term. As boatbum points out from the text of Romans, the branches from the house of Israel were cut off and the Gentiles were grafted on as foretold by Isaiah 5 and 27 and John 15. To be more precise, the vineyard talked about in scripture is a continuation of God’s election and chosen people (our Jewish forefathers and Gentiles). A pleasant vineyard that the Lord will keep. But I’m sure it has nothing to with this church.

[piasa]

Some may, but it’s more akin to the New Testament’s cost of discipleship....as far as the world is concerned it’s the same thing.

[af_vet_1981]

Reviewing the passages, “new vineyard” was probably an inaccurate term. As boatbum points out from the text of Romans, the branches from the house of Israel were cut off and the Gentiles were grafted on as foretold by Isaiah 5 and 27 and John 15. To be more precise, the vineyard talked about in scripture is a continuation of God’s election and chosen people (our Jewish forefathers and Gentiles). A pleasant vineyard that the Lord will keep.

Better; except note that
1. only some of the natural branches from the House of Israel were cut off
2. those who were grafted in are supposed to fear, and continue in His goodness; otherwise they shall be cut off (no Once Saved Always Saved here)
3. those who are cut off may be grafted in again
4. the Apostle declared this a mystery.

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Romans, Catholic chapter eleven, Protestant verses thirteen to thirty one,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[ravenwolf]

A “new” vineyard or grafted-in branches to the same vine?

---

I think that probably explains it better. and i also do not believe God is going to quit being God to his chosen people,
Israel is still Gods chosen people.

So us people who calls our selves Christians really needs to start being Christians.

[Zionist Conspirator]

The Old Testament is filled with examples of the Jewish people abandoning God. And the rebellion of the Jews against God is talked about repeated. Moses stated it, Joshua stated it, Isaiah stated it, Jeremiah stated it, etc.

Indeed it is. And every time it happened was because the Jews strayed from the Torah.

You know, like chrstians want them to do???

[HarleyD]

And every time it happened was because the Jews strayed from the Torah.

The problem isn't that we stray from following God's law. As Moses pointed out, we DON'T want to keep God's law. "Straying" from it is just simply an excuse.

I'm reminded of the incident in Jeremiah:

Jer 42:1-43:2 Then all the commanders of the forces, and Johanan the son of Kareah and Jezaniah the son of Hoshaiah, and all the people from the least to the greatest, came near and said to Jeremiah the prophet, "Let our plea for mercy come before you, and pray to the LORD your God for us, for all this remnant—because we are left with but a few, as your eyes see us—that the LORD your God may show us the way we should go, and the thing that we should do."

Jeremiah the prophet said to them, "I have heard you. Behold, I will pray to the LORD your God according to your request, and whatever the LORD answers you I will tell you. I will keep nothing back from you." Then they said to Jeremiah, "May the LORD be a true and faithful witness against us if we do not act according to all the word with which the LORD your God sends you to us. Jer 42:6 Whether it is good or bad, we will obey the voice of the LORD our God ...

At the end of ten days the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah. Then he summoned Johanan the son of Kareah and all the commanders of the forces who were with him, ... and said to them, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ... If you will remain in this land, then I will build you up and not pull you down; ...

When Jeremiah finished speaking to all the people all these words of the LORD their God, with which the LORD their God had sent him to them, Azariah the son of Hoshaiah and Johanan the son of Kareah and all the insolent men said to Jeremiah, "You are telling a lie. The LORD our God did not send you to say, 'Do not go to Egypt to live there,'

Poor Jeremiah, after he told the people not to go down to Egypt, not only did they run off to Egypt but forced Jeremiah to go along. Finally the Jews ended up killing him.

It isn't that the Jews have strayed from the Torah. They rebel against the word of God-just like everyone else. It is our sinful, rebellious nature that causes this. One cannot live by the law because our hearts are openly rebellious. And no matter how much one may think they are conforming to the Torah, they will never follow it completely.

A sacrifice has been paid to atone for this behavior through Christ His Messiah. But the Jews are still in open rebellion to God's solution just as they were with God's solution spoken through Jeremiah.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Chrstianity can't prove any of its claims. It merely asserts them . . . over and over and over and over again.

On the first Shavu`ot G-d spoke directly to perhaps some three million people. This had never happened before and has never happened since. Until it does, this is the supreme revelation that judges all others. The Prophets must be interpreted in light of the Torah. Any interpretation of the Prophets that is contrary to Torah is a false interpretation. Period. But of course, try explaining this to a chrstian.

In the portion of the Torah called Ki-Tavo' (Deuteronomy 26:1-29:8) there is a very long section of the terrible consequences of deviating from the Torah. It also predicts the long exile of the Jews for that very reason. There is not a word about exile being a result of "rejecting the messiah." This is a foreign meaning forced into the text. Out of all the 613 commandments of the Torah, there is no commandment to "accept the messiah," because when he comes it will be obvious to all. And there's no negative commandment against "killing G-d" for the simple reason that G-d can't be killed (but again, try telling that to a chrstian).

I am quite aware that none of this will make it into your head, but it is quite frustrating to see the dishonestly of chrstians who insist that the Jews are being punished for keeping the Torah (instead of abandoning it for chrstianity) when the Torah itself says the exact opposite.

[HarleyD]

Christianity can't prove any of its claims. It merely asserts them

Of course it can. It's simply some do not chose to see. But if you REALLY want proof of what Christianity is saying, all one has to do is look inside their heart to see that they are corrupt and sinful regardless of how much they try to live by the law. This article stated that Jews do not believe in original sin. Call it what one wills, if a person cannot acknowledge they are a sinner they will never come to Christ.

I am quite aware that none of this will make it into your head,

On the contrary, what all Christians will attest to is that they have been EXACTLY where non-believers are at. We fully understand. After all, I haven't been a Christian all my life.

...but it is quite frustrating to see the dishonestly of chrstians who insist that the Jews are being punished for keeping the Torah (instead of abandoning it for chrstianity)

Jews are NOT being punished for attempting to keep the Torah. God blesses those who keep His commands simply because His command are meant for our good. Anyone who keeps God's commands-no matter who they are will find a rewarding life (in general).

But while keeping God's commands may give a fruitful life, it will NOT allow a person to enter into God's presences. The law will not atone for a person's sins.

Job 22:3 Is it any pleasure to the Almighty if you are in the right, or is it gain to him if you make your ways blameless?

It is not a balance sheet where one's good works can outweigh the other. If a person has broken one law (just one itsy-bitsy white lie), they have broken all the commands.

Sins need to be atoned for. And I haven't seen many animal sacrifices coming from Jerusalem these day. That is because God and only God can atone for our sins which He did through His Messiah, Jesus Christ.

So, yes, the Torah (and HarleyD) do say following the Torah will provide a happy and abundant life (for the most part). But it will not atone for those time one breaks the law. What then? Only Christ can do that fulfilling God's atonement and allowing us to follow His commandments. Rejecting Christ is no different than a complete rejection of God's love and plan. It is breaking God's most sacred law.

[Hrvatski Noahid]

> The Prophets must be interpreted in light of the Torah.

I will add that the Prophets have no importance as a source of Torah commandments. The Five Books of Moses contain all of the Divine precepts.