Is Pope Francis a Liberal Protestant?

First Things ^ | November 15, 2017 | Gerald McDermott

[ebb tide]

As an outsider, I can’t help but wonder whether the pope and the USCCB were particularly provoked by Weinandy’s suggestion that Jesus had allowed this controversy in order “to manifest just how weak is the faith of many within the Church, even among too many of her bishops.” Catholics will have to make up their own minds—but I’ll admit I have questions about the faith of Pope Francis, which seems, if not weak, at least different from that of the Catholic tradition.

Even before the release of Amoris Laetitia in March 2016, Francis had caused many to question his fidelity to that tradition. In 2014, the midterm report of the Extraordinary Synod on the Family recommended that pastors emphasize the “positive aspects” of cohabitation and civil remarriage after divorce. He said that Jesus’s multiplication of bread and fish was really a miracle of sharing, not of multiplying (2013); told a woman in an invalid marriage that she could take Holy Communion (2014); claimed that lost souls do not go to hell (2015); and said that Jesus had begged his parents for forgiveness (2015). In 2016, he said that God had been “unjust with his son,” announced his prayer intention to build a society “that places the human person at the center,” and declared that inequality is “the greatest evil that exists.” In 2017, he joked that “inside the Holy Trinity they’re all arguing behind closed doors, but on the outside they give the picture of unity.” Jesus Christ, he said, “made himself the devil.” “No war is just,” he pronounced. At the end of history, “everything will be saved. Everything.”

Weinandy and other Catholic critics have pointed to alarming statements and suggestions in Amoris Laetitia itself. The exhortation declares, “No one can be condemned for ever, because that is not the logic of the Gospel!” In December 2016, the Catholic philosophers John Finnis and Germain Grisez argued in their “Misuse of Amoris Laetitia” that though this statement reflects a trend among Catholic thinkers stemming from Karl Rahner and Hans Urs von Balthasar, it contradicts the gospels’ clear statements and the Catholic tradition’s teaching that there is “unending punishment” in hell. Finnis and Grisez charge that, according to the logic of Amoris Laetitia, some of the faithful are too weak to keep God’s commandments, and can live in grace while committing ongoing and habitual sins “in grave matter.” Like (Episcopalian) Joseph Fletcher, who taught Situation Ethics in the 1960s, the exhortation suggests that there are exceptions to every moral rule and that there is no such thing as an intrinsically evil act.

I take no pleasure in Rome’s travails. For decades, orthodox Anglicans and other Protestants seeking to resist the apostasies of liberal Christianity have looked to Rome for moral and theological support. Most of us recognized that we were really fighting the sexual revolution, which had coopted and corrupted the Episcopal Church and its parent across the pond. First it was the sanctity of life and euthanasia. Then it was homosexual practice. Now it is gay marriage and transgender ideology. During the pontificates of John Paul II and Benedict XVI, we non-Catholics arguing moral theology could point to learned and compelling arguments coming out of Rome and say, in effect, “The oldest and largest part of the Body of Christ agrees with us, and it does so with remarkable sophistication.”

Those of us who continue to fight for orthodoxy, in dogmatic as well as moral theology, miss those days when there was a clear beacon shining from across the Tiber. For now, it seems, Rome itself has been infiltrated by the sexual revolution. The center is not holding.

Though we are dismayed, we must not despair. For the brave and principled stand made by Tom Weinandy reminds us that God raises up prophetic lights when dark days come to his Church.

Gerald McDermott holds the Anglican Chair of Divinity at Beeson Divinity School.

[RegulatorCountry]

Oh, that was a short nap. But, I have to ask, what does that litany of grievances fit for an oppressed minority looking for a handout have to do with anything?

[GreyFriar]

ETL’s post 21 with the initial paragraphs about “Liberation Theology” that was being spread among Catholic seminaries and priests in South America during the 1950’s and 60’s is a source if not the source of the “problem” with Pope Francis. The communist underlying of Liberation Theology is what all of the Popes have been fighting against since the Russian Revolution. And that Saint John-Paul II and President Reagan cooperated together to defeat the Soviet Union.

It is the borrowing of clergy that follow secular humanism more than our common Christian teachings, that have wrecked the Protestant denominations and now is trying to wreck the Catholic Church.

I remember it being discussed by some of the priests when I was attending St Joseph’s College (Indiana) back in the late 1960’s. The Society of the Precious Blood, C.PP.S., had priests and sisters in South America at the time (mainly Columbia, Peru, Bolivia & Chile) and some of them who came back talked about the Mary Knoll fathers adopting Liberation Theology as part of their interpretation/corruption of Catholicism.

[jobim]

the more Catholic than the Pope peanut gallery sets a different standard for their rebellion than they do for the Protestants that they have now become.

Thank you for responding. Please don't take offense when
I point out that you have little knowledge of all that
has taken place around this pope's 4 years. It is absolutely
incredible the twists and turns of this pontificate, and
keeping up with it has been an enormously time-consuming
task, as only a small percentage of Catholics have
undertaken such.

But I see your main point, that to go one's own way from
the pope does appear Protestant. But when the pope himself
is working against the teachings of the church, then the
whole world is flipped.

[RegulatorCountry]

It’s evident to many that this faction has taken over the Roman Catholic Church, but some are very resistant to the notion that their salvation is in peril by remaining in such a corrupted organization, relying upon it for Christian guidance. This is not a recent thing, however. The corruption goes back at least five centuries if not a thousand years to when Rome went into schism with the Orthodox.

[foreverfree]

bump

[ealgeone]

One can argue several popes have, shall,we say, diverted from Scripture over the years. Too bad ebb wasn’t there to point that out. However, much as he wants, this does not remove the pope from Romam Catholicsm. He’s a Roman Catholic like it or not.

[RegulatorCountry]

I don’t take offense easily, jobim. I know many people who are Roman Catholic, friends and neighbors who I accept as brothers and sisters in Christ. Their church, however, is a very alarming thing. I’m constantly amazed that they’ve managed to come out the other end of that Byzantine house of puzzles filled with all manner of creepy-crawlies as Christians. I suspect many more fail to negotiate that maze. Looking at voting patterns, this suspicion is borne out.

[ETL]

If he’s a commie plant he was grown in a South American greenhouse owned and operated by the Roman Catholic Church and it’s full of a whole bunch of other commie plants exactly like him. Why, might one ask, would the Roman Catholic Church be elevating such individuals through the hierarchy, and all the way to Pope?

Could be part of a larger global conspiracy.

__________________________

From the Russian Orthodox Church's website...

WCC welcomes meeting of Pope Francis and Patriarch Kirill for unity and peace

12 February 2016

Rev. Dr Olav Fykse Tveit, general secretary of the World Council of Churches (WCC), has issued a statement on behalf of the Council hailing the historic meeting of Pope Francis, pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church, and Patriarch Kirill, primate of the Russian Orthodox Church.

The two leaders met on 12 February in Havana, Cuba.

The Russian Orthodox Church is the largest member church in the WCC..."

https://www.oikoumene.org/en/press-centre/news/wcc-welcomes-meeting-of-pope-francis-and-patriarch-kirill

_______________________________________________________

Catch that? The Russian Orthodox Church is the largest member of the (hard left) World Council of Churches!

That is all you need to know to understand that it is a sham operation. Reverend Wright’s fake church United Church of Christ (UCC) is also a member. In fact, his (communist) “Black Liberation Theology” was concocted by the KGB.

The Russians must laugh their behinds off at how easily westerners can be tricked and deceived. They are great chess players, thinking many moves ahead of their opponents, while most of us, unfortunately, have a difficult time at simple checkers.

The Russian Orthodox Church is a member of the (communist) World Council of Churches:
https://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches/russian-orthodox-church
____________________________________

From David Horowitz's FrontPageMag.com/DiscoverTheNetworks.org:
Profile: WORLD COUNCIL OF CHURCHES (WCC)

• Long-time proponent of Liberation Theology
• Infiltrated by the KGB during the Cold War
• Funded Marxist insurgent groups throughout the world
• Calls for capitalism’s “reform” according to socialist principles

  [lots more at link...]

  http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=7514

  _______________________________________________________

  August, 2006

  

  North Korea Builds an Orthodox Church

  The first-ever Russian Orthodox church will open in Pyongyang, North Korea this weekend.

  It’s an odd project considering that freedom of religion exists almost exclusively on paper in the closed communist country.

  North Korean dictator Kim Jong-Il is supposed to be a communist atheist.

  So why has he made promoting the Russia Orthodox Church his latest pet project?

  On August 13, the country’s first Orthodox church is to be opened in the capital city of Pyongyang.

  Russian Metropolitan Bishop Kyrill, second in command within the Church after the Patriarch, will travel to Pyongyang to christen the new house of worship. ...”

  http://www.spiegel.de/international/kim-jong-il-and-religion-north-korea-builds-an-orthodox-church-a-431310.htm

[RegulatorCountry]

I’ve long felt that the Orthodox were much closer to being on the right track, but having anything to do with the WCC throws that into doubt.

[JerryBlackwell]

No he is a godless communist. Begs the question if his consecration is valid when he celebrates Mass.

[ETL]

I’ve long felt that the Orthodox were much closer to being on the right track, but having anything to do with the WCC throws that into doubt.

Christians in Russia Refuse to Stop Sharing the Gospel Despite Putin’s Ban on Evangelism

By Stoyan Zaimov , Christian Post Reporter
Aug 3, 2016 | 1:32 PM

Christians in Russia have said they are determined to preach the Gospel and fulfill the Great Commission despite tough new laws signed by President Vladimir Putin that ban evangelism outside of churches. ...”

http://www.christianpost.com/news/christians-russia-refuse-stop-sharing-the-gospel-despite-putins-ban-evangelism-167442/
_____________________________________________________

July 2016...

FAITH UNDER FIRE

Russia puts lid on Christians sharing faith

‘Will require any sharing ... even a casual conversation, to have prior authorization from state’

http://www.wnd.com/2016/07/russia-puts-lid-on-christians-sharing-faith/#34c1Fo2QT9xudcrR.99
_____________________________________________________

July 2016...

“Activities as diverse as holding prayer meetings in homes, posting worship times on a religious community’s website, and giving a lecture on yoga have all been interpreted by police and prosecutors as “missionary activity”, thanks to the broad definition now enshrined in the Religion Law.

Despite a clear predominance of prosecutions brought against those who see their faith as requiring them to publicly share their beliefs, such as Protestants and Jehovah’s Witnesses, people from at least 15 different religious traditions have faced charges.” ..."

On 6 July 2016, President Vladimir Putin signed amendments to the Religion Law imposing harsh restrictions on the sharing of beliefs, including on where and by whom they may be shared. ..."

http://www.forum18.org/archive.php?article_id=2305

[Mad Dawg]

You know, Catholic or non-Catholic ... There are other choices, like for instance, “Bad Catholic.”

For me, I came home during J2P2. I like PapaBenXVI very much.

But PapaFran is hard for me. It's like a difficult grandparent. Love and piety urge us to place the kindest interpretation on what they say and do, and it's good penance to love where loving is hard.

But even if there is, in the schema of eternity a kind of Lobachevskian “ultra-ideal point” at which, we can speculate, things which never can meet finally meet, still it is hard to reconcile what PapaFran says with what Our Lord says about damnation.

J2P2 speculated that there might be somesuch final ingathering. IIRC he balked at thinking of God “giving up” on some. But when PapaFran says damnation does not comport with the logic of the Gospel ... well, I think I see what he means, but I would not have said it like that.

But, after two decades or so as a Catholic, I feel that I was due a difficult Pope.

[RegulatorCountry]

State Church is as State Church does. Our Founders were more prescient than they knew.

[Mad Dawg]

LOL!

[RegulatorCountry]

You said yourself upthread that he can’t be Pope if he’s not Catholic.

So, he’s Pope. Got the funny hat, Popemobile and everything.

What does that say to you?

[ebb tide]

You know, Catholic or non-Catholic ... There are other choices, like for instance, “Bad Catholic.”

"Bad Catholic" as opposed to perfect "Sinless Catholic"?

All Catholics are bad when they sin.

[RegulatorCountry]

Glad to have provided some levity, lol.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

He’s clearly not a Protestant, or he would lead the Roman church out of all the false teachings that accrued over the centuries.

Therefore, he is not Protestant.

The actual identity is Jesuit.

[ebb tide]

You said yourself upthread that he can’t be Pope if he’s not Catholic.

So, he’s Pope.

And so says the non-Catholic.