Strategies for Returning to the [Catholic] Church

CE.com ^ | 01-11-18 | James Day

[FourtySeven]

I'll await your comments on what I have posted...

Which post?

[metmom]

Mary’s own words that God is her Savior.

Only sinners need saviors. If she were sinless, she wouldn’t need a savior, nor would she have been able to receive God’s grace.

Grace only kicks in where sin is.

Also, Mary was worried about Jesus when He was twelve and stayed behind in the Temple.

Worry is a sin.

[ADSUM]

Your comment: “You are so deep into Roman Catholic teaching on this you don’t realize what you’re saying.”

You must like to say things just to say them - whether they are true or not!

You should look up the meaning of virgin. Your statement that Mary was a virgin ... until Christ was born shows an ignorance of biology and the definition of “virgin birth”.

Jesus Christ was begotten by God (the Holy Spirit) and not in the ordinary course of human sexual intercourse.

So you are saying that Jesus Christ is not God if Mary is not the Mother of Jesus dual combined nature as divine and human?

Through the Incarnation the divine Son of God took on human nature. Jesus is fully human and fully divine. This did not change with the Ascension.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

665 Christ’s Ascension marks the definitive entrance of Jesus’ humanity into God’s heavenly domain...

[ADSUM]

Yes. You are right. The Catholic church is full of sinners, even priests and Bishops. Just as Christ spent time with the sinners. Yes the Church has issues and problems and we seek to follow the example of Christ, the Blessed Mother and all the Saints. We do it as the Body of Christ and working together to help others to follow God’s will. Share your prayers with us so that we can do it better.

As Catholics, Christ gave us not only the Eucharist - His Body and Blood, but also the Sacrament of Reconciliation for the forgiveness of our sins.

The mission of the Catholic Church is to lead us to Heaven by teaching us God’s truth and praying to God. Even sinners can teach us about God and perform the Sacraments. Even Jesus recognized the Jewish ministers and told us to follow what they say and not what they do.

Yes, we can try to follow God’s will or only accept the teachings that we agree with and reject His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

So you can apparently judge all the unrepentant sinners of the Catholic priesthood? That must be an awesome burden to have that power?

So you keep His words:

John 6: 53”Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.”

May you find God’s peace and lose your cynicism about the Catholic Church and Faith.

[Luircin]

Not cynicism, my friend.

Just realistic.

As Jesus said, “One who is faithful in a very little is also faithful in much, and one who is dishonest in a very little is also dishonest in much.”

Why in the literal Hell would I want to entrust my eternal soul to an organization who can’t even be trusted with the good of the children under their care?

If they’d Inquisited themselves and threw out everyone involved with that debacle, not to mention the current anti-Christian Pope, MAYBE I’d consider your words.

But until then, as Jesus said in Matthew 7: “15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.”

And quite frankly, Rome is bearing a LOT of bad fruit, and denying it doesn’t change that.

Why would I want to trust my soul to a bunch of false prophets?

[ADSUM]

A savior is one who brings salvation.

To meet God in heaven, one needs to be free of sin.

So one that dies in mortal sin does not gain salvation, and one goes to Purgatory to cleanse oneself of venial sins.

Mary was sinless and was assumed in Heaven.

Since Mary was sinless, why wouldn’t she be able to receive God’s graces? Hail Mary, Full of Grace denotes that Mary has received the great gift of God’s grace. “The Lord is with you.”

You can be a denier or a believer. A mother can worry about her child without it being a sin. Check out Simeon’s Prophecy (Luke2:25-35)and ask why would God tell Mary about the future suffering she will endure?

[PraiseTheLord]

ooops

Good going except MORTAL SIN ===> TO HELL. do not pass go

[ that’s the hangup with sinning :((

[imardmd1]

A day or two after Jesus was baptized by John, in the month of Kislev (~December) of A. D. 29, Jesus first met two of John's disciples that were nearby, and this is what happened:

"One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 
He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias^(Hebrew), which is,
being interpreted, the Christ*^(English). 
And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona:
thou shalt be called Cephas**^(Aramaic), which is by interpretation, A^~ stone^{~~ (English)}." (John 1:40-42 AV; my additions & keys superscripted)

  Keys with notes:
* = the Greek text has χριστος which transliterated is Christ, but in each of the languages means "Anointed One"
** = transliterated from Aramaic by the KJV translators as Cephas, correctly pronounced "Kayfas"
^~ = Added by the translators, not inspired, incorrect, and should be crossed out
^~~ = the Greek text here translated by Beloved John is πετρος (Petros), is anarthrous, and is interpreted by the KJV committee as meaning "Stone"; and being anarthrous indicting a quality, it gives Simon the title Anglicized by transliteration as "Peter", which means "Stone" or "Rock"

It was in Sivan (~June) of A. D. 32, about two and a jhalf years later, that Jesus went to Caesarea of Philippi (click here) as recorded by Levi, writing in Greek what Jesus spoke there in teaching His Twelve about His coming death. It was there again that Jesus pointed out that Simon bar Jonah's nickname (that described him as having the quality of stone or rock-like material) had stuck and was now commonly used by all his acquaintances. To those speaking Aramaic, it was "Kefas," in Greek it was "Petros," and our Bible in English transliterates the Greek as "Peter." But the meaning is "stone. piece of rock."

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art ^titledPeter^{πετρος = petros}, and upon this* ^{τη = the} rock**^{πετρα - petra} I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Mt. 16:18 AV; my keys and notes superscripted)

Keys with notes:
* = demonstrative pronoun referring to the reinforcement of His revelation as the long-awaited Messiah
** = the noun πετρα is articulated to show its specific use for the massive rock about them, a symbol of the utter indestructibility and unchangeable meaning of the testimony that "Thou art the Christ^{Anointed One}, the Son of The Living God," the foundation of the Christian Faith and its manifestation in thousands of local assemblies of believers through the ages.

Appropriately, this is the miles-long rock escarpment upon which Caesarea Philippi was situated, and upon which they were resting as Jesus taught them (and not without a parable centered on rock-like solidity of God's revelations.

Site of Caesarea Philippi

It was only 10 months later that Jesus went to Jerusalem for His appointment for the cross-execution. Clearly, he was trying to acclimate His disciples for the unsettling events to come. Doubtlessly He was steeling them for their distraught reaction to the termination of His earthly ministry when He would tender it into their care.

=======

Your claim against my statement that Jesus nicknamed Simon at the outset of His ministry was:

No; HE did NOT!!!

That's a joke, right?

[imardmd1]

That claim didn't work very well for Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, or Obama, did it, Els?

It's not a truism promoted by my Bible, the KJV.

How about yours?

[ADSUM]

Why would I want to trust my soul to a bunch of false prophets?

Because that is the Church that Jesus established and gave us the Sacraments. Christ established His Church for our salvation. You can either accept or reject it. To me when one rejects the Catholic Church, he is rejecting Christ.

The church is the Body of Christ of all the members - those that are active and those that are not. If we don’t work towards our salvation together, then many of us will not achieve salvation.

Are you realistic and willing to throw away your salvation because of the sins of some (or many?)? While we expect our priests and Bishops to be holy men, some are not. We would like the Church to be perfect like Jesus, but it is not perfect and thus many problems.

I have decided that the Catholic Church is not one or several leaders, but the community as a whole. While I respect many priests and Bishops and other leaders to help me develop a relationship with God, it is the relationship of God that is most important and my willingness to follow God’s will and teachings.

I also feel the importance of the Sacraments in my spiritual life with God. God has given everything I have and I am very blessed and I feel I owe God the Thanks in attending Mass and the Sacraments.

I know many people that have abandoned or rejected the Catholic Church (including relatives) and I am very concerned for their salvation. It seems to me that many assume already their salvation. We see the ways of the world and it leads many to rationalization about their actions. Some are Catholics that have done very bad things, and I hope that they confess and repent their sins and God forgives them.

Yes the Catholic church has members where the seed has fallen on rocky ground and bear bad fruit. Yet some(or many) bad members are not the whole church, as there are many good holy and God-following members of the Catholic Church including many priests, Bishops and lay people.

In spite of problems the Catholic Church is a world wide growing body that worships God and doing their best to follow God’s will. Yet the Catholic Church is producing good fruit inspite of all the negative news.

Yes beware of the false prophets and the many man-made religions.

[ravenwolf]

FourtySeven Actually I’d say we were both mistaken. It seems it’s actually Aramaic, not Greek or Hebrew. ----------------------------------------------------- Yes i think you are probably right Elsa, you said i was wrong about their first meeting and you very well may be right as the one you referred to may have been before that. That is good thinking as it is a way to ignore the scripture i posted, so here it is again. American King James Version And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, You are Simon the son of Jona: you shall be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone. American Standard Version He brought him unto Jesus. Jesus looked upon him, and said, Thou art Simon the son of John: thou shalt be called Cephas (which is by interpretation, Peter). Douay-Rheims Bible And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus looking upon him, said: Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is interpreted Peter. Darby Bible Translation And he led him to Jesus. Jesus looking at him said, Thou art Simon, the son of Jonas; thou shalt be called Cephas (which interpreted is stone). English Revised Version He brought him unto Jesus. Jesus looked upon him, and said, Thou art Simon the son of John: thou shalt be called Cephas (which is by interpretation, Peter). Webster's Bible Translation And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas; which is, by interpretation, a stone. Weymouth New Testament He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon, son of John: you shall be called Cephas" --that is to say, Peter (or 'Rock') World English Bible He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas" (which is by interpretation, Peter). Young's Literal Translation and he brought him unto Jesus: and having looked upon him, Jesus saith, 'Thou art Simon, the son of Jonas, thou shalt be called Cephas,' (which is interpreted, A rock.) ------------------------------------------------------- What does cephas mean? Dictionaries - Easton's Bible Dictionary - Cephas Cephas [N] [H] [S] a Syriac surname given by Christ to Simon ( John 1:42 ), meaning "rock." The Greeks translated it by Petros, and the Latins by Petrus. Given Name CEPHAS GENDER: Masculine USAGE: Biblical, Biblical Latin OTHER SCRIPTS: Κηφας (Ancient Greek) PRONOUNCED: SEE-fəs (English) [details] Meaning & History Means "rock" in Aramaic. The apostle Simon was called Cephas by Jesus because he was to be the rock upon which the Christian church was to be built. In most versions of the New Testament Cephas is translated into Greek Πετρος (Petros) (in English Peter). What does Cephas mean? Cephas image: http://cdn.thinkbabynames.com/img/play.png Pronunciation of Cephas as a boys' name is of Hebrew origin, and the meaning of Cephas is "rock". Biblical: what Jesus called his apostle Simon. Peter is the Latin translation by which he is more frequently known. Cephas See also: Céphas Contents 1 English 1.1 Etymology 1.2 Proper noun 1.2.1 Translations 1.3 Anagrams 2 Latin 2.1 Etymology 2.2 Pronunciation 2.3 Proper noun 2.3.1 Declension English Etymology Borrowed from Latin Cephas, from Ancient Greek Κηφᾶς (Kēphâs), from Aramaic כֵּיפָא‏ (kēp̄ā, “stone, rock”). Proper noun Cephas The apostle Peter, using the name given to him by Jesus. Strong's Concordance Képhas: "a rock," Cephas, a name given to the apostle Peter Original Word: Κηφᾶς, ᾶ, ὁ Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine Transliteration: Képhas Phonetic Spelling: (kay-fas') Short Definition: Cephas Definition: Cephas (Aramaic for rock), the new name given to Simon Peter, the apostle. King James Bible And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 1 cor 15 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: Even Paul called Peter the rock. I believe it is plain that Jesus called Simon a rock. --------------------------------------------------------- I believe that should be enough to show any one who is honest that Jesus called Peter a rock which is interpreted in greek as a stone and them on to peter in english of course i am just like you as i don,t know shiit. But i am already aware that Jesus is the rock, and also realize that we can not tell him that he can not call Peter the rock if he wants. It does not take any more interpretation, it has already been done. If some of you want to prove the Catholics wrong you should be able to do it with out making it appear that Jesus Christ is wrong and that Peter was nothing but a goof up. Protestants are in enough trouble already being the daughters of a harlot, why prove to the out side world that you are one of the harlots? Deuteronomy 4:2 2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. Rev 22:19 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar. Deuteronomy 12:32 “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it. 2 Peter 1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. Matthew 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Matthew 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. 1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, Have a good day brothers and sisters.

[ADSUM]

There is the Sacrament of Reconciliation that a Catholic priest acting for God can forgive sins if one is truly sorry.

[ravenwolf]

I put spaces between the verses but it did`nt work.

[ravenwolf]

But such is not required beliefs, which for the most part is what i listed, while any criticism of the the supererogatory adulation of Mary can be reacted to as if such is official doctrine.

---

We have no disagreement on that, i only have respect for her as a woman who was obviously as innocent as innocent goes among us sinners.

[ravenwolf]

Actually I’d say we were both mistaken.

It seems it’s actually Aramaic, not Greek or Hebrew.

---

Yes, it seems there are more in favor of Aramaic, than there are Hebrew.

[ealgeone]

A savior is one who brings salvation.

That would be Christ and not Mary.

To meet God in heaven, one needs to be free of sin.

No. One needs faith in Christ and the forgiveness of sins. No created being, including Mary, was ever free of sin.

24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5:24 NASB

So one that dies in mortal sin does not gain salvation, and one goes to Purgatory to cleanse oneself of venial sins.

There are no "mortal sins" that separate you from Christ.

13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:13-14 NASB

The security of the believer is evidenced by the gift of the Holy Spirit Who seals us in Him.

13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14 NASB

Since Mary was sinless, why wouldn’t she be able to receive God’s graces?

Mary was indeed a sinner like you and I.

Any believer in Christ receives God's grace.

Hail Mary, Full of Grace denotes that Mary has received the great gift of God’s grace. “The Lord is with you.”

No it doesn't as noted on these threads. It is based on a bad translation of the Greek.

Is the Lord not with all believers?

[ealgeone]

You should look up the meaning of virgin. Your statement that Mary was a virgin ... until Christ was born shows an ignorance of biology and the definition of “virgin birth”.

Are you advancing the position that Jesus was not delivered through the birth canal?

Jesus Christ was begotten by God (the Holy Spirit) and not in the ordinary course of human sexual intercourse.

We are in agreement on this as this is in Scripture.

So you are saying that Jesus Christ is not God if Mary is not the Mother of Jesus dual combined nature as divine and human?

Jesus is God regardless of Mary.

Which illustrates my point that the Roman Catholic has to run everything through Mary.

[metmom]

So you can apparently judge all the unrepentant sinners of the Catholic priesthood? That must be an awesome burden to have that power?

No, God has already judged them. Our agreeing with it isn't us judging them. It's recognizing God already determined judgment on them.

Besides, God tells us how to deal with sin in the church.

Why doesn't the Catholic church follow the very book it lays claim to giving to the world?

Matthew 18:15-20 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

1 Timothy 3:1-13 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

Titus 1:5-16 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth. To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

1 Corinthians 5:1-13 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

That precludes taking communion with someone like that.

2 John 1:4-11 I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as we were commanded by the Father. And now I ask you, dear lady—not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it. For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

Galatians 5:19-24 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

[metmom]

Grace is not in effect unless there is sin.

If Mary was full of grace, it was because she was a sinner.

People don’t go to hell because they have mortal sin. They go to hell because they have rejected God’s offer of eternal life through Jesus Christ.

When we accept Him, then God FORGIVES us ALL our sins and transfers us into the kingdom of Jesus Christ. We are saved at that point. IOW, NOT going to hell.

No born again/born from above believer is going to hell. Ain’t happening.

[metmom]

You can either accept or reject it. To me when one rejects the Catholic Church, he is rejecting Christ.

Absolute nonsense.

That is NOT found ANYWHERE in Scripture.

That is a Catholic fabrication designed to force people to submit to it.