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To: HarleyD
Please note that Augustine finally understood that grace must proceed faith.

Trent:

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

I can't see how what you said above is any different from the Catholic view.

So every time Catholics take the Eucharist to receive God's grace, they negate the work of Christ simply because they do not accept the grace that God has given them.

What do you mean, Catholics do not accept a grace? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Calvin's position was that I was predestined and had no free will to either accept or reject grace.

The Catholic view is this: Everything, *everything* comes from grace BUT ALSO the will is free to accept or reject that grace. That's a tough one to square I know, but that's what has come down to us. Any attempt to "simplify" the doctrine by abandoning either grace or free will is anathema.

And anyway, I know you want to drag this back to soteriology (admittedly not my strong point) but my point was much wider. Did Augustine retract his views on the Mass, on the episcopate, on celibacy, on feast-days?

71 posted on 08/20/2018 6:51:43 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Claud

bump


72 posted on 08/20/2018 9:41:34 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Claud
Compare the Council of Trent to the Council of Orange statements:

I have heard the arguments that the Council of Orange was 1) a small regional council that wasn't in authority, 2) was wrong in their statements, or 3) that things were lost in the translation (please see Catholic Answer Forum-Why Does It Appear That the Council of Orange Contradicts the Council of Trent). It is appartent that I'm not the only one who noticed the contradictions. I just happen to not accept the answers provided.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Calvin's position was that I was predestined and had no free will to either accept or reject grace.

This isn't Calvin's view but Christ's view: Joh 6:44  No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. All believers are drawn by God and given to Christ. Many (both Catholics and Protestants) seem to hate this idea but it simply scripture and I accept it for what it states.

And anyway, I know you want to drag this back to soteriology (admittedly not my strong point)

It would be worth while to study soteriology. There are only two; monergism and synergism.

Did Augustine retract his views on the Mass, on the episcopate, on celibacy, on feast-days?

And what did Augustine state about predestination? I suspect you don't agree with him on that. Most Catholics think he was in error. So one has to wonder why they would say he's right on mass and not predestination.

As for myself, I can read these early fathers knowing that these are not inspired writings. It becomes a bit more difficult when Catholics claim they follow the early church fathers yet ignore major teachings or say they were in error.

74 posted on 08/20/2018 1:42:49 PM PDT by HarleyD
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