The Dormition of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of God [2007]

Sword-In-Hat Blogspot ^ | 15 August 2007 | Rick Stuckwisch

[Al Hitan]

Today the Church remembers with thanksgiving the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of God. Historically, this day was understood to mark her dormition, or "falling asleep," which was most anciently regarded as her natural death and burial. From early on, however, the Church considered that she who conceived and gave birth to the very God of very God, by His Word and Holy Spirit, was also resurrected and ascended into heaven, in both body and soul, soon after her death. There is no word of Holy Scripture to teach these traditions as doctrine, but we should not be too quick to dismiss them as merely pious devotion. Such piety, at its heart, is a confession of that which is the Church's faith in Christ, the Blessed Virgin Mary's Son, our Savior and our God.

St. Mary is uniquely honored among all the saints of God in Christ, not only by the Church, but first of all by the Lord God Himself. He has had mercy upon her, blessed her with His grace and favor, and chosen her above all other women to bear the almighty and eternal Son of God. She is rightly called, and truly is, the Mother of God; for her own dear Son, the Fruit of her womb, is indeed the one true God, begotten of the Father from all eternity. It is from her flesh and blood that the Lord has taken for Himself a true and natural body, bone of her bone and flesh of her flesh, so that henceforth He is true Man, the perfect second Adam, our elder Brother, our kinsman Redeemer, the promised Seed of the Woman, by whom we are reconciled to God. As the ancient fathers of the Church confessed, God thus became like us, in order that we become like Him, by grace. It is that great salvation that we celebrate in commemorating any of the saints, and in particular the Blessed Virgin Mother of God, St. Mary.

She is an icon of the Church, a living Sacrament of Christ, and a beautiful example of faith, of all the true children of father Abraham. Her body was comprehended by the Word and Spirit of God to become the tangible means by which the Son of God became flesh and was given to us, and not only for us, but for the life of the world. It is His body, conceived and born of St. Mary, that our sins and sorrows did carry. It is a human body, like our own in every way, save without sin, because He was born of this woman (born under the Law to redeem us). Thus do we recognize in her an archetype of the Blessed Sacrament of our Lord's body and blood.

What is more, in conceiving and giving birth to the Son of God, she is a type of the Church, the holy mother who surely gives birth to the sons of God in Christ. We too have been conceived and given new birth by the same Word and Spirit of the same Holy Triune God that overshadowed the Blessed Virgin Mary and knit within her womb the incarnation of the only-begotten Son. Thus are we, like Him, "born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (St. John 1:13).

Along with her vocation as the woman by whom the Son of God was given to and for the world, St. Mary also stands with us as a living member of the Church, the Body of Christ. When the Word of the Gospel was announced to her, she received that Word in faith, obtained in her by the mercies of God, and meekly bowed her head in humble trust: "Let it be to me according to Thy Word." Blessed is she who has heard the Word of God and kept it, who treasured it in her heart, who believed that there would surely be a fulfillment of all that God had spoken to her. In all of this, St. Mary is one of us, a faithful disciple of her own dear Son, and among that great cloud of witnesses with which we are surrounded, of that blest communion, fellowship divine.

When the Church in pious tradition has considered St. Mary to be resurrected and ascended to heaven, already in both body and soul, it is a confession of faith in that which Christ Jesus our Lord has accomplished for us and for all by His victorious Cross, Resurrection and Ascension. We may indeed contemplate that she by whom the Lord became like us, should exemplify the way in which we all become like Him, recreated in the glorious Image of the Man from heaven. Of course, we do not rest faith upon the tradition of St. Mary's dormition and assumption into heaven; faith clings to Jesus Christ alone and finds true peace and Sabbath rest forever in Him. But what we envision concering St. Mary, we understand to be the Church's hope precisely in Christ our Lord, our Savior and our God. For we know that He is the Resurrection and the Life, and that she who believes in Him will live even if she dies; yes, and everyone who lives and believes in Him will never die.

We believe, teach and confess with the absolute certainty of faith that St. Mary is the Mother of God; that the almighty and eternal Son of the living God was born of this woman, born under the Law, to redeem us who were under the Law. In celebrating that marvelous incarnation of God the Son, in which He died and rose again for us men and our salvation, we may also celebrate proleptically the resurrection of the body that all His saints share with Him by grace through faith in the Gospel. And in that glorious light, we sing: "O higher than the cherubim, more glorious than the seraphim, lead their praises: 'Alleluia!' Thou bearer of the eternal Word, most gracious magnify the Lord: 'Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!"

[Iscool]

Nope. Mary ONLY gave birth to Jesus - who is God. She never gave birth to anyone else, never the Father nor the Holy Spirit.

They are all one God...If Mary is the mother of one, she's the mother of all...

[MHGinTN]

Try to not get too haughty there dude/dudette.

[MHGinTN]

You built your body while in the water world. That body you vuilt now sustains you in the air world.

[MHGinTN]

Call Salvation quick! She loves to point to my typos : vuilt = built

[Iscool]

Kurios is translated as *lord* not as *God*
Yes, the translation is Lord. As in Lord God. See Iscool's post.

No, not as in Lord God but as in Lord Messiah...

If you are ignorant of Jesus' relationship with those Jewish people or if you are in deception mode then one might say Kurios means God...It could mean God in some other context but certainly not in the context it's used with Elizabeth...

That wasn't even a good try on your part...

[Al Hitan]

No, you still don't get it.

I got it the first time. Go back and read where I responded to it.

my point was that the SAME subject matter gets posted on threads over and over again

This is a religion forum. Everything, both Catholic and non-Catholic, gets discussed over and over. People like to discuss it, or it wouldn't happen,

and all that ever results is strife, animosity and discord.

And you are a willing participant.

Catholics get their knickers in a knot

Catholics get their knickers in a knot. Just so you know, so do the non-Catholics. Take off the blinders.

But to post it as an OPEN Religion Forum thread which as you admit invites discussion, then you shouldn't be offended

I'm not offended. You sure seem to be.

There should be some discretion on what we post and a sensitivity to how it may be received.

Heed your own advice. If my posting an article is insensitive to you, then maybe you're in the wrong place.

but I am weary of the vitriol as well as the snobbish elitism of those who assert ONLY the Roman Catholic Church is the one, true Church of Jesus Christ

Again, you're looking through polarized glasses. Try to be honest about it. I don't know how many times I've seen on the RF where non-Catholics claim that Catholics aren't even Christian. Besides, the Roman Catholic Church is not the one, true Church. The Catholic Church is.

they don't come away thinking Free Republic is an internet arm of the Vatican.

LOL.

I hope you have a good week and get to spend more time with the grandkids.

Thanks, you too.

Though they have all gone to be with the Lord

I'm sorry to hear that.

[Al Hitan]

f you are in deception mode then one might say Kurios means God...It could mean God

LOL.

[boatbums]

You're talking about the Greek. Of course I am. The Greek OT, the Septuagint, which was used during the time of Jesus, used the Greek word kurios as the personal name of Almighty God - Lord. Lord God.

No, they did not use the personal name of God with the term "kurios". The Hebrew word for God is "elohim". Elohim is not the name of God, it is simply 'God' in Hebrew. Many languages have some similarities because many of them share the same origin. 'God' in English, 'Elohim' in Hebrew, 'Elaha' in Aramaic, 'Alaha' in Syriac etc. but the name of God in the Bible is YHWH. In the New Testament, the Greek referred to God as the Lord God "kurie theos" (see Revelation 16:7). In Matthew 22:44, "The lord (kurios) said to my lord (kuriō)...", uses two related Greek words.

But I was responding to your posted Old Testament verses. As you know that the Old Testament wasn't written in Greek, right? The LXX is a translation. In our English versions, we see the word "lord", but the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of the OT to write in Hebrew and the Hebrew word for "lord" depends upon the context. If it's God's personal name JHVH/YHVH, then the English translators wrote LORD and not lord/Lord. TWO different words - in Hebrew.

[boatbums]

I did respond. See #32.

[Al Hitan]

But I was responding to your posted Old Testament verses.

And that's what I've been addressing.

As you know that the Old Testament wasn't written in Greek, right? The LXX is a translation.

Yes, the translation used during the time of Jesus. And it uses the Greek word kurios in the verses I posted.

[boatbums]

Will you admit that Mary was a virgin her entire earthly life? Or do you deny it?

I believe that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus, the Son of God incarnate. After she delivered Him, I can't see how she could have physically remained an intact virgin - He wasn't born magically. I also believe she went on to have other children since Scripture AND history speaks of the brothers and sisters of Jesus. That in no way diminishes Mary's honor.

Can you unequivocally claim that Mary remained a virgin her entire earthly life? What do you base it upon?

[Al Hitan]

I did respond. See #32.

The second half of the post you did't respond to is my #39. You certainly didn't respond to it in #32.

[Al Hitan]

The trinity means 3... God, Holy Spirit, Jesus. Only Jesus came to the earth as a man. God and the Holy Spirit are both here at times

In Christianity, the Trinity is one God in 3 divine and distinct persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. This is the orthodox Christian view.

[boatbums]

But "kurios" is STILL not the personal name of the one, true God. The Greek "kurios" means lord. The Greek word "theos" means God. First century Jews would have most likely used the Hebrew Torah scrolls in Temple worship but they spoke Aramaic. Many also knew Greek as it was the lingua franca of that time and place. The Septuagint would have been used by non-Jewish Christians who spoke Greek for the Old Testament books. Regardless, the Greek did not translate the personal name of God, Jehovah/JHVH/YHVH/Yahweh but uses the word lord.

I found this helpful:

The Septuagint copies intended for Jewish readers did have the Tetragrammaton. On the other hand, the Septuagint translation circulated in the Gentile world used the Greek word Kyrios for the divine name. As "Aid To Bible Understanding" states on page 886, Dr Kahle from 'The Cairo Geniza' said, "We now know that [the Septuagint] as far as it was written by Jews for Jews did not translate the Divine name by Kyrios, but the Tetragrammaton written with Hebrew or Greek letters was retained in such MSS. It was the Christians who replaced the Tetragrammaton by kyrios, when the divine name written in Hebrew letters was not understood any more."

Of course, there is no problem with the fact that YHWH occured very many times in both the original Hebrew scriptures (i.e. the Old Testament), and in the Septuagint (a Greek rendition of the Old Testament). The only problem arises when attempts are made to insert YHWH into the Greek scriptures (i.e. the New Testament) when it was never ever written that way by the writers! Does the Septuagint really translate God's name as "Lord"?

[boatbums]

What don't you think I addressed? I did not criticize the Lutheran pastor's comments and even quoted him when he said:

Of course, we do not rest faith upon the tradition of St. Mary's dormition and assumption into heaven; faith clings to Jesus Christ alone and finds true peace and Sabbath rest forever in Him.

You kind of skipped right past that part. Did you miss where I asked you about it?

Your nose went out of joint pretty much from the start and you continue to niggle and nitpick. I'm done here.

[Al Hitan]

I found this helpful:

I found this more helpful: the origins of the use of κυριος

In spite of these fragments [a small number (about 3)], however, there are good reasons to believe that the use of κυριος (kyrios, ‘lord’) for יהוה (Yhwh) was widespread by the time the NT was written.

"Lord” was widely recognised to be a valid substitute for the divine name prior to NT times.

[Al Hitan]

What don't you think I addressed?

As I've already said, I haven't seen you address the second part of my post #39. Where I asked you:

[To boatbums:] I wonder, do you also welcome and respect the pastor's statements:

St. Mary is uniquely honored among all the saints of God in Christ, not only by the Church, but first of all by the Lord God Himself.

What is more, in conceiving and giving birth to the Son of God, she is a type of the Church, the holy mother who surely gives birth to the sons of God in Christ

When the Church in pious tradition has considered St. Mary to be resurrected and ascended to heaven, already in both body and soul, it is a confession of faith in that which Christ Jesus our Lord has accomplished for us and for all by His victorious Cross, Resurrection and Ascension.

We believe, teach and confess with the absolute certainty of faith that St. Mary is the Mother of God

Did you answer this somewhere, or not?

You kind of skipped right past that part. Did you miss where I asked you about it?

Oh my gosh. No, I didn't skip right past it, and no I did not miss where you asked about it. You asked if I welcome and respect the pastor's statement. I answered in the affirmative, in this same post #39. Look at this post and it may help clear things up for you.

Your nose went out of joint pretty much from the start

Just because I I disagree with your premise that it's just the Catholics who: "get their knickers in a knot, stir up or foment flame wars, ridicule, mock, berate or snark", doesn't mean my nose went out of joint. It's not true, as the problem is just as much on the non-Catholic side. Both parties are guilty. Trying to paint it as anything else is disingenuous. I'm sorry you take disagreement with you as me being upset.

[Iscool]

It’s amazing how many closet Nestorians there are these days. Good grief!

You say that like you think it's a bad thing...

The Nestorians rejected your religion and believed as we do; that Mary was the mother of Jesus, not God...Christians have opposed your religion since it was formed...

2Co_2:17  For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

[Iscool]

"Lord” was widely recognised to be a valid substitute for the divine name prior to NT times.

Nope...

יְהֹוָה
yehôvâh
yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.יְהֹוָה yehôvâh yeh-ho-vaw' From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.

LORD is an English word...The word LORD with all capital letters is an English translation of the Hebrew word yehôvâh ...

To claim LORD in the OT is the same as Lord in the NT is goofy...

[frnewsjunkie]

i dissgree. done.-