The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[nate4one]

I believe that the body will be a physical, as in tangible, body, although not "flesh." It will have substance.

Thanks for the clarification. I agree with this.

Now we only disagree on the timing! :o)

[nate4one]

You have one last post on your page. I will not continue there. You have clearly not even looked at the passages I referenced.

[nate4one]

Thought this might be helpful to you. You seem to like to do this under the assumption you are right.

Mat 6:5 "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. Mat 6:6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. Mat 6:7 "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Mat 6:8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Mat 6:9 Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread; Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors; Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. Mat 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you;

[Uri’el-2012]

Here's a thread you may be interested in since it discusses the same issues you have been in the last few days.

Evangelicals and Jews Together - An Unlikely Alliance

1815 posted on 4/7/02 4:20 PM Mountain by Iowegian

Thank you for the link !

Dispensationalism falls out of literal belief in the Word of G-d.

Not the rapture nor pre-trib or post trib or Darby.

However if you believe in the literal Word of G-d, it leads

most if not all to the pre-tribulation Rapture.

Barukh haba b'Shem Adonai
Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord

Chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

[Uri’el-2012]

Nate; how do read the following:

Re. 3:12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my
God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the
name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the
new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my
God; and I will also write on him my new name.

Re. 21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of
heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for
her husband.

Re. 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and
high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down
out of heaven from God.

Chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

[nate4one]

However if you believe in the literal Word of G-d, it leads most if not all to the pre-tribulation Rapture.

Seems like the only thing you do not take literally is Christs woes against those Jews in His day and the time he said that vengeance would be carried out.

That generation!!

You literalize only what you want to, you twist the rest. That which tyou should take literally, you treat as figurative ("this generation"0. That which should be symbolic (prophecy) you treat as literal.

[JHavard]

This is not true.(that you believe in Scripture first?)
Orthodoxy believes that the ONLY basis for our faith is the revelation of God preserved in Holy Tradition.(So tradition is the basis of your faith?)
Scripture is the first and greatest aspect of this Tradition.(So Scripture is the the greatest aspect or the more important?)
But we believe it is always incorrect to speak of Scripture "vs." Tradition.(So they are equal since neither can be used over the other)

Im guess I just don't understand splainen. (^g^) JH

[american colleen]

Reggie, Reggie, are you being deliberately obtuse or just not reading what I write? Or perhaps not believing what I say?

I don't know about you, but I believe, in Scripture when one "falls down at his feet" it is to worship "whomever", be it an Angel, an Apostle, or a statue.

Well, we do agree as Scripture mentions both "falls down at his feet" and "Worship" in the same sentence in all three passages. Therefore, we do not disagree - it is wrong to worship anyone but God. Follow along now.

Acts 10: 25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am a man."

What do you think Peter was telling this man about falling and/or prostrating yourself at any mans feet? Think about this with regard to the present hierarchy of the RCC.

Is this opposed to the past hierarchy of the Catholic Church? Do you really think that people worship the Pope? Please site the evidence for that as I am pretty sure you cannot read anyone's mind. You must have evidence otherwise you wouldn't have made the statement.

Revelation 19: 10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Revelation 22: 8 I John am he who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me;
9 but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."

There are parts of Revelation which are very confusing but not these two verses.

All verses say "fell down to worship" or "fell down and worship" or "fell down and worshipped him" - don't you think that is a little bit different than someone kneeling and praying? Isn't that the same thing you do at times when you read the Bible? Are you worshipping the Bible or are you praying while reading the Bible?

[american colleen]

Reposting this as you must have missed it:

Reggie, can we both agree that St. Paul is in Heaven with God?

If we do agree here, then why would it have been OK for me to ask St. Paul to pray for me if I was his contemporary, but not OK for me to ask him to pray for me 1900 years later?

Now, let me make this clear: If I ask a Saint to pray for me, I am asking him to unite his prayers to God with mine - just the same as I might ask you. I do not worship or put on par ANYTHING or ANYONE with God.

One of my grandfathers was about the most religious, God loving person I ever knew. This man talked the talk and walked the walk, God rest his soul. I would never pray to him - just to make that clear.

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[american colleen]

I said: Regarding the Revelation passages you sited. Who is falling at anyone's feet? What does this have to do with anything? Praying to and Worshipping are two entirely different things. If you want to persist in the erroneous belief that we Catholics worship statues, the Blessed Virgin Mary, Saints, and everything else under the sun, then I can't do anything about that. But it is wrong and both you and I are answerable to God, and not each other.

You said: I don't know about you, but I believe, in Scripture when one "falls down at his feet" it is to worship "whomever", be it an Angel, an Apostle, or a statue.

I should have been clearer in what I said. Payno was insinuating that Catholics fall at feet and worship. At least that is how I took it. I was asking her how Catholics fall at feet and worship saints if we are asking the saints to pray for us - since that was the topic being discussed.

Now, as for you Reggie, I am sorry you don't understand the difference between the Scriptural "falling down and worshiping" and the Catholics kneeling when they pray.

Is there anything about Catholicism that you don't disagree with?

[nate4one]

I read it like this:

So let's get to the meat of this New Heavens and New Earth. It is found all throughout the New Testament.

Truth 1:
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Truth 1 Complete:
As clear throughout scripture, it was the Old Covenant which was passing away. Symbolized by the temple (Heb 9:9). Therefore this "New Heavens and Earth is the New Covenant!!
Truth 2:
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband;
Truth 2 Complete:
The Bride adorned for her Husband:
2Co 11:2 I feel a divine jealousy for you, for I betrothed you to Christ to present you as a pure bride to her one husband.
The New Jerusalem is…:
Heb 11:10 For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Note: The parable of the wise man who built his house upon the Rock?!
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received what was promised, but having seen it and greeted it from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. Heb 11:15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Heb 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, Heb 12:23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, Heb 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.

Note: The Church of God, the Body of Christ is the New Jerusalem, the "Bride adorned for her Husband!"
Truth 3: Rev 21:3 and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them;
Note: AMEN!!!
Truth 3 Complete: Mat 1:21 she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." Mat 1:22 All this took place to fulfil what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: Mat 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel" (which means, God with us).
Rom 6:5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. Rom 6:8 But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him.
The manner of resurrection is already discussed in 1 Cor 15.
Eph 3:17 and that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; hat you, being rooted and grounded in love,
1Co 6:17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Col 1:19 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.L

Rom 15:33 The God of peace be with you all. Amen. ETC!!!

[american colleen]

So tradition is the basis of your faith?

I would posit that Tradition is the original basis for your faith as well. The Church had to weed through false and true writings to compose the Bible. This took about 350 or so years. Given the position of Protestants, there must have been no Christian instruction from after the death of the Apostles until the Bible was completed.

[JHavard]

Rev 19:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

P Harvey 3:18 And John saith unto the angel, what sayest thou, canst thou now readeth my mind? I fellest down, not to worshipest thou, but because I trippest on thine rope which girdest thy loins, and besides that it was just a curtsy, not a fallest down.

If the Catholics can make and then quote any one of their saint’s who said what they needed for the discussion, so can we.

(^g^) JH

[american colleen]

If the Catholics can make and then quote any one of their saint’s who said what they needed for the discussion, so can we.

How very clever!

[JHavard]

I would posit that Tradition is the original basis for your faith as well. The Church had to weed through false and true writings to compose the Bible. This took about 350 or so years. Given the position of Protestants, there must have been no Christian instruction from after the death of the Apostles until the Bible was completed.

So they had strayed that far from the teachings of the apostles and the known writings that all the churches had, that soon after the apostles had died huh?

It looks like when they did get the canon pretty well put together, they would have started making some serious changes concerning the falsehoods they had started teaching, but instead they wrote it in Latin and told the people that only a well educated priest is qualified to read it to them.

Is that pretty well how it happened? JH

[Uri’el-2012]

So let's get to the meat of this New Heavens and New Earth. It is found all throughout the New Testament.

Nate:

What a wonderful series of "cut and paste" allegories in order to support your eisegesis.

But nothing to support your Jesuitical preterism .

Baruch HaShem Adonai Yeshua HaMashiach

Praise the Holy Name of the L-rd Jesus the Christ

Chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

[nate4one]

Thank You!

(Funny how scripture interprets itself only when YOU see fit.)

Again, it is the dispensationalist who calls Christ the liar.

Geneav is only used when referring to the current generation.

gennema is used when referring to a bloodline or nation or race!! That is consistant in EVERY use of these words!!

[american colleen]

It looks like when they did get the canon pretty well put together, they would have started making some serious changes concerning the falsehoods they had started teaching, but instead they wrote it in Latin and told the people that only a well educated priest is qualified to read it to them.

Nice spin! My point is that maybe "Tradition" as in oral "Tradition" is how the teaching Church Christ left us spread the word before the Bible was put together.

Well, check your historical facts, how many people could read back then? How many people could have afforded a Bible had one been available before printing presses? And, can you site me where at all in reputable history books you got your fact "and told the people that only a well educated priest is qualified to read it to them." Hello! What was the most universal language of the time? Originally the Bible was in Greek, then translated to Latin because that was the most popularly understood language.

Is that pretty well how it happened? JH

That would be a "no".

[OLD REGGIE]

Reggie, can we both agree that St. Paul is in Heaven with God?

No!

[OLD REGGIE]

Now, as for you Reggie, I am sorry you don't understand the difference between the Scriptural "falling down and worshiping" and the Catholics kneeling when they pray.

Is prostrating yourself at a persons feet, a statues feet, anythings feet, "kneeling" to you?
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Is there anything about Catholicism that you don't disagree with?

There are many things where the RCC agrees with me. (It is a two way street you know). Where we part ways is where the RCC departs from Scripture. Pretty simple isn't it.