Oh, so I can go dig my grandmother out of the cemetary and take her to dinner tonight then, right.. cause she really ain't dead... See, you're confusing spiritual death with physical death again. Ecclesiastes 9 doesn't confuse the two. It says whether spiritually alive or dead, the dead [bodily]have no more effect on anything here. And Paul told us that resurrection was not of our fleshly body if I'm not too much mistaken - 1 Cor 15. which nulls all your word games over who's dead and who isn't. Bodily death puts people in the realm of the spirit. And the realm of the spirit is off limits to us. It puts us in the position of talking to spirits when we try to talk to the dead - thus spiritism, necromancy, etc! All things strictly forbidden. All very cut and dry - until you like breaking God's laws because such things have taken your fancy - then you make all kind of perverse twistings of God's word to excuse what you do. Might as well say divorce, homosexuality and abortion are fine too; because they come from the same place as all these laws forbidding you to talk to the dead. Imagine that - a fine display of picking and choosing. You condemn people for breaking the laws you choose to follow, then encourage them to break the laws you deem nonsense. Pretty much makes you both decieved and a deciever. An accuser and a hypocrite.
Who's confusing what with what again? Why do you think the carcass is the person?
SD
I'll respond to the substance of your post in a few minutes. Just wanted to let you know that I find these sentences COMPLETELY uncalled for. When have I CONDEMNED ANYBODY? Who have I ACCUSED?
I do not understand how you reconcile your belief that you only argue about facts with making statements like this. May God forgive you for your sins.
EC:9 - 1 For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them. 2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath. 3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. 8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. 9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. 10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. 12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.
13 This wisdom have I seen also under the sun, and it seemed great unto me: 14 There was a little city, and few men within it; and there came a great king against it, and besieged it, and built great bulwarks against it: 15 Now there was found in it a poor wise man, and he by his wisdom delivered the city; yet no man remembered that same poor man. 16 Then said I, Wisdom is better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are not heard. 17 The words of wise men are heard in quiet more than the cry of him that ruleth among fools. 18 Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good.
Now, I’m not going to presume to have sufficient wisdom to interpret this entire chapter. But I just don’t see the meaning in it that you seem to see. Obviously, neither you nor I believes that Scripture can contradict itself. But just as obviously, the two key passages of this chapter (in terms of our current debate) are violated in the New Testament. The two key passages seem to be:
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Clearly, this chapter makes no distinction among those who physically die. You’ve said as much. Just as clearly, this is violated by Jesus Christ – Who we both admit is no Lawbreaker. He is fully man, yet He certainly has a portion after His physical death in that which is done under the sun. This whole chapter seems to be crying out for the Messiah, for the need for the Christ who will save us from the death of the grave. And He came! And He saved us from death! Tombs were open and the dead walked among the citizens of Jerusalem. Lazarus walked free of the tomb. He died, yet certainly had more to do with that which happens under the sun. The passages I cited at length from John and other NT books, with which you agree, maintain that those who belong to God do not die.
You keep talking about a distinction between spiritual life and physical life. I don’t see any such distinction in the chapter above. I say that in Christ the distinction is destroyed. I say this because it is the clear teaching of both the Scriptures and the Church. Physical death is meaningless. The corpse in the ground is not your grandmother. Everlasting life has conquered the tomb. The problem of the grave, which this chapter cries out over, has been SOLVED.
You keep saying that the Law of the OT says that the dead cannot have anymore to do with the living. The Scripture above is the only one you refer to. I don’t see the Law you claim to see. I see a statement of fact, and a sad fact it is – “a living dog is better than a dead lion.” This chapter does not seem to be saying that God wants this to be the way that things are. And as we learn in the New Testament, He doesn’t. He doesn’t want the grave to be the end, so He sends His Son to bring us EVERLASTING LIFE. Hooray!