Posted on 04/13/2002 7:13:03 AM PDT by NYer
First, I never said anything about an imam or a chaldean priest. My initial posting asked about why the pope kissed the koran. He did and you deny it! Whether or not he was standing next to a priest puppet or an imam is irrevelant...
and the true agenda comes out
You really should study Scripture and Catholicism. Pennance is hardly a myth and your post is full of hearsay. Just as you shouldn't rely on Al Gore or the Florida Supreme Court to explain election laws, you also shouldn't rely on the ill-informed to explain Catholicism.
Ezechiel 18:30-31 "Therefore will I judge every man according to his ways, O house of Israel, saith the Lord God. Be converted and do penance for all your iniquities: and iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, by which you have transgressed, and make to yourselves a new heart, and a new spirit: and why will you die, O house of Israel?"
Matthew 3:8 "Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance."
On Tv I watched a debate with a Catholic Representative and a Protestant and the Catholic priest was saying the Catholic Church believes that Mary is Co-redemptrix and Co-Mediatrix with Christ ( Both False and Un-Biblical).
Again you are incorrect. Co-redemptrix is Latin, not English, and is frequently mistranslated by those who are ignorant of Latin. Co-redemptrix properly translated is, the woman with the redeemer. It does not mean equal to the redeemer.
Maccabees is in the Greek Septuagint and has been Biblical doctrine since the canon of the Bible was closed in 405 AD by Pope St. Innocent I. Early Church Fathers like Polycarp, Irenaeus, Clement and Cyprian quoted the Alexandrian canon including the "disputed" books. Luther, along with others, found justification in adopting the Hebrew canon, established ~100 AD, 1124 years later by raising the concerns of St. Jerome and the Council of Jamina as well as their own personal objections. Thus aligning themselves with and following non-Christian Jewish Rabbis at Jamina and not Jesus, the writers of the New Testament and the early Church. Research into the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran discovered ancient Hebrew copies of some of the disputed books, thus making those objections moot. Had Luther had his way the abridged Protestant Bible would also not contain the Epistle of St. Jude, the Epistle to the Hebrews, the Epistle of James or the Revelation of John. Also, the abridged version is lacking seven chapters of the Book of Esther, 66 verses of the third chapter of Daniel and the 13th and 14th chapters of Daniel. Let's not forget that Luther also added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28 in his German translation.
As a student of the Reformation are you familiar with the following words of Luther? "We are obliged to yield many things to the Papists[Catholics]- that they possess the Word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it." Luthers' Commentary on St. John, ch. 16.
Are you as equally concerned with the Child Sexual Molestation by Protestant Clergy? I certainly hope so.
Ezekiel 18:30 the Hebrew shub = means return, turn back, repent [BDB lexicon]. Again the Vulgate translates it agite paenitentiam.
In both verses the concept of pennance is not in either the original greek or hebrew but is introduced in the Latin Vulgate. I'll stick with the original languages.
Among Protestants there is debate whether the term metanoeo means to change one's mind or to change one's actions. "Do Pennance" is not in the range of meaning for the terms Matthew and Esekiel used.
Calvin, on the other hand, was more precise and balanced. [Compare the various editions of the Institutes and you see his consistency.] To make Luther and Protestants synonymous is flawed.
To be honest, the Catholic church has no obligation to you or anyone and would do well to simply ignore your advice as best possible and reach a solution to their problems within the church that meets the approval of the faithful. You, after all, seem to have an interest in the destruction of the Church. I try to make it a point never to take advice from anyone who doesn't have what I want and cannot demonstrate that he knows how to get there. Pedophilia is not a Catholic issue. Pedophilia and homosexuality is a sensational story for the (inordinately homosexual and morally neutered) press. We will clean house, as we have in the past evolved to meet the needs of a growing and thriving body of Faithful. This is something very few other religions (including, I suppose, yours) can claim to have accomplished even once. Large groups of people always have detractors and almost always have a few freakily bad members. If your Church has over a few hundred people, you probably have some closet homosexuals, adulterers and other sinners where you least expect them. It's a testament to the Catholic church that the braying for it's demise by people like you has been loud and consistent for over 2000 years. We'll be here in 20 years and 200 years. Will your church?
cj
Others have provided some answers to your other questions, but I have some things to add to this one.
The Immaculate Conception only deals with original sin. The Church also teaches that Mary was never touched by personal sin. Mary was redeemed by Jesus just as we all are. However, Mary's redemption was proactive. Christ's redemption preserved Mary from sin; while His redemption cleanses sins that are committed by others, reactive. Many object to this belief based on Romans 3:23 and Paul's statement "For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God." Paul is emphasizing the universal aspect of sin extending to Jews and Gentiles alike. We know that Adam and Eve did not sin prior to the fall, babies don't sin and of course Jesus never sinned. Catholics believe that Mary is another exception. Imagine that if you fell into a pile of quicksand and someone rescued you, you would then be saved. However, if that same person prevented you from falling into the quicksand in the first place then you would have been more perfectly saved. Were Mary ever touched by sin the greeting from the angel in Luke 1:28 "And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." would have been untrue since every sin diminshes ones grace. In the original Greek the word used was kecharitomene which means a perfection of grace that is both permanent and unique. Just as the Ark of the Old Testament, which carried His written Word, was free from defect, so the Ark of the New Testament, Mary, which carried His living Word, is free from defect as well.
Many claim that the Catholic Church invented the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception in 1854 or the Bodily Assumption in 1954, but that is untrue. The Church didn't invent the doctrine of the Trinity when it definied the belief in 325 and it didn't invent Scripture when the canon of the Bible was closed in 405. The Church merely codified beliefs that always existed in the Church and which were expressed by Apostles and early Church Fathers. The Immaculate Conception and the Assumption are both taught implicitly through Old Testament typology and explicitly by the Church Fathers; such as St. Ephraim, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. Gregory of Tours and St. John Damascene. Also refer to St. James the Apostles' The Protoevangelium of James.
It should also be noted that Scripture does not include all of Jesus works, John 21:25, nor does it speak of the deaths of the Apostles(with the exception of Judas), Joseph or Mary. So they must all still be amongst the living, right? The Sola Scriptura arguments don't hold up and in fact Sola Scriptura directly contradicts Scripture in many places. By the way, can you tell me where I, or anyone, can find the words Trinity, Incarnation or Bible in the Bible? Since chapter divisions are not part of the Bible, they were added by Stephen Cardinal Langton (1165?-1228) for reading convenience, should they be removed?
But that IS the deal. There are several special masses during which part of the responsorial dialogue is a recitation of a HUGE list of saints. After each name is called, the response of the congregation is "Pray for us!". This is the proper spirit of invoking the intercession of saints. We also meditate upon the lives of those exemplary Church leaders we call Saints for inspiration and intercession. What part of Scripture says we can NOT do this?
cj
You could ask the same question of many Protestants. Let me know if you want to read about more cases.
Ok, I have thought about it...
The Bible clearly states that we are NOT to worship idols (aka statues and statuettes), and Christ Himself (not Mary or the Saints), is the ONLY mediator and way to the Father. Additionally, it is ONLY through the sacrifice and blood of the Savior (NOT deeds, prayer, or suffering) that Salvation is given.
Now unless you or any of my Catholic friends have found otherwise, anywhere in the Word of God -- the Holy Bible, my ears are open.
You do realize that you are asking for that proof from those who believe that there is only one "Holy Father" but that he is in Rome (rather than heaven), don't you?
When it is used by Catholics and in Catholic documents it means "excommunicated."
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