Posted on 04/13/2002 1:33:01 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
Now if you have experienced one of these blessings you have all five of them, for they can not be separated. These are acts of the Sovereign God, and thank God for His Word that these acts to us. Do you ever stop to thank God for these five blessings? Our faith rests in the knowledge of this abounding truth for the soul, and it is refreshing to our hearts. "He Who has begun a good work in us will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." As a child of God you do not need to worry as to whether you are predestinated or not. God has settled that in His Word as He deals with the subject of Sovereignty. V. The Pathway that Leads to Predestination In Romans 3:28 a man is justified by faith alone. In Romans 4, we are told that man was justified by faith always. Two leaders are mentioned here in the opening of Romans 4, Abraham and David. So, you see that men of the Old Testament were justified by faith as in the New Testament. In chapter 5 we are told that justification is by faith. Romans 5: 1 says, "Therefore being justified by faith." How a man is justified is clearly stated by Paul, and the question of justification is settled. The sinner is perfectly and fully accepted by God and justified by faith. Religion and rights are all excluded. Now, if you can come into the experience of justification by faith, you can come into the assurance that you are predestinated. Justification by faith in Christ is the pathway that leads to Predestination. Whom He justifies, them He also predestinates. If you have the blessing of justification in your soul, you also have the blessing of Predestination. The same moment that God justifies a sinner, the Spirit of God places him in the Body of Jesus Christ, and as soon as he is in the Body of Christ, he is in the divine predestinated, corporate group. It is impossible for a man to be justified and not predestinated.
Notice the change of the order of terms to make his point. Predestination preceeds justification in Paul's theology, not the reverse!
The point he is making is that the logical order laid out is irrevleant to the Christian who comes to the Lord by faith (being Justified) and thus is now Predestinated to be adopted as heirs of Christ.
An analogy can be made in the building of the Tabernacle when the articles started with the Mercy seat and moved outward, while man moves inward towards the Mercy seat.
To the believer, we know we have been Predestinated because we are Justified.
Remember, the author is not relating Predestination to salvation but to adoption as sons of God, heirs with Christ (Rom.8:14-17)
If you are right about his point, then he is not making the point that Paul makes in this passage.
The other thread was pulled so I will have to answer the question on this one. Preserverance is not Preservation. As Vance writes,
In defining perserverance, Calvinists emphasize continuance in believing and living in holiness to the end of one's life much like an Arminian would do. (Vance, p.559)Those who believe in eternal security(once saved, always saved) believe that while one may lose their eternal rewards (1Cor.3:13) and even their life (1Jn.1:5) they can never lose their salvation (1Cor.3:15,2Tim2:13). Now, there are Calvinists (John Murray) who teach that Union with Christ is the central truth of the whole doctrine of the Bible (Ibid,p.588), but Calvinists generally emphasize that if one is to know he is the elect, he must 'continue believing throughout is life in order to be saved'(Ibid;p.589). Thus, the Arminian works to stay saved, the Calvinist to show he is saved and those who believe in eternal security because they are saved.
I'll take door number 3.
V. PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS The Bible teaches, and I believe in, the eternal security of the born-again believer. The man who has trusted Jesus Christ has ever- lasting life and will never perish. But the eternal security of the believer does not depend upon his perseverance. I do not know a single Bible verse that says anything about the saints' persevering, but there are several Bible verses that mention the fact that the saints have been preserved. Perseverance is one thing. Preservation is another. No. The saints do not persevere; they are preserved. The Bible states in Jude 1, "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ. . . ." First Thessalonians 5:23 says, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." The Bible makes it plain that the believer is kept. He does not keep himself. First Peter 1:4-5 states: "To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." The Bible says in John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." Now that doesn't sound like the PERSEVERANCE of the sheep or the saints. Here the sheep are in the Father's hand, and they are safe - not because they persevere, but because they are in the Father's hand. Charles Spurgeon once said, "I do not believe in the PERSEVERANCE of the saints. I believe in the PERSEVERANCE of the Savior." To be sure, the Bible teaches the eternal security of the believer. But the believer's security has nothing to do with his persevering. We are secure because we are kept by God. We are held in the Father's hand. And according to Ephesians 4:30, we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.So I disagree with all 5 points of Calvinism as John Calvin taught it.
Amen!
While they claim their salvation is "all God and no Man," in practice it is partially God and partially man. God elects them, but they have to perservere to the end to show somebody (themselves? God? The chior?) that they really really really really were the elect.
Unfortunately they cannot claim that they are saved, because they haven't yet perservered to the end.
I know that I am saved, because I am banking on the promise of God that "WHOSOEVER believes in him SHALL NOT PERISH but has EVERLASTING LIFE." I kept my part of the deal. I believe. So "IT IS FINISHED" as far as I am concerned. God keeps his promises. I HAVE everlasting life. I don't have to feel it. I don't have to show it. I don't have to prove it to anyone. I have it! God promised it to me. God doesn't welch on his promises. His promise alone is good enough for me.
21. Q. What is true faith? A. True faith is a sure knowledge whereby I accept as true all that God has revealed to us in His Word.[1] At the same time it is a firm confidence[2] that not only to others, but also to me,[3] God has granted forgiveness of sins, everlasting righteousness, and salvation,[4] out of mere grace, only for the sake of Christ's merits.[5] This faith the Holy Spirit works in my heart by the gospel.[6] [1] John 17:3, 17; Heb. 11:1-3; James 2:19. [2] Rom. 4:18-21; 5:1; 10:10; Heb. 4:16. [3] Gal. 2:20. [4] Rom. 1:17; Heb. 10:10. [5] Rom.3:20-26; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8-10. [6] Acts 16:14; Rom. 1:16; 10:17; I Cor. 1:21.
The Canons of Dordt (Reformed Synod Confession attended by Calvinists of varying nationalities) says assurrance comes in "due time" and varying degrees.
Article 12: The Assurance of Election Assurance of this their eternal and unchangeable election to salvation is given to the chosen in due time, though by various stages and in differing measure. Such assurance comes not by inquisitive searching into the hidden and deep things of God, but by noticing within themselves, with spiritual joy and holy delight, the unmistakable fruits of election pointed out in God's Word-- such as a true faith in Christ, a childlike fear of God, a godly sorrow for their sins, a hunger and thirst for righteousness, and so on.
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So, there is not a unified Reformed position on this issue. [I find this an analogous (but not identical) debate to that between Ryrie and McArthur on Lordship Salvation.] Those Puritans who pushed the 'fruit inspection' to it's limits lost for all practical purposes the doctrine of assurrance. IMHO they became similar to Arminians not in doubting whether they had lost their salvation but in doubting whether they had the real disease.
I think the Heidelburg Catechism is to be preferred. For me, fruit is a aspect of assurrance but also the witness of the Spirit confirms I am a child of God, one of His sheep.
Exactly!
I think the Heidelburg Catechism is to be preferred. For me, fruit is a aspect of assurrance but also the witness of the Spirit confirms I am a child of God, one of His sheep
Amen!
Dumb PM...How do YOU know you are saved?
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2 Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:</font color>
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Eph 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all
Notice the change of the order of terms to make his point. Predestination preceeds justification in Paul's theology, not the reverse!
Well I noticed right away ..dr..how much sense does it make to predestinate somne thing that has already happened? No one wants God to be sovereign! They will twist the word of God to deny it..
I think some of the confusion may come from how the passage is being read. The passages reads, For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate, ... moreover, whom he did predestinate them he also called... In making this a temporal issue, it would need to read as For whom he had foreknown, he also did Predestinate,...moreover, whom he had predestinate(d) them he also called, and whom he had called, them he also Justified, and whom he had justified them he also glorified.
In other words, In order to make the sequence temporal the perfect tense would have had to be used to show the temporal sequence.
Thus,the point being made is not the order of the Decrees but that since you are Justified (through faith), you have been Predestinated to be a son (vs.29) which leads one to conclude that one can never lose his salvation (vs 31-39)
I believe we may be omitting a couple of important aspects of this discussion which may limit the scope of our understanding of the subject matter.
The first thing is "chronos" (linear time). YHWH is not bound by chronos and the future is as clear to Him as the present and the past. "There is nothing new under the sun," means exactly that.
YHWH has already been where we are going and Was before matter was created as well. There are no limitations in YHWH's existence and all things are known to Him, past, present and (what we call) future.
When it comes to trying to discern "tenses" from an English Translation of The Ancient Hebrew Bible, or even the Greek, one borders on the ridiculous in all but the most obvious of instances. It can't be done reliably since no one knows (reliably) what really was written, - insofar as tenses and punctuation go.
The language of the day (Jesus'day) was primarily Aramaic anyway, so what was said would have first been said in Aramaic in most cases and then translated into Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, and from there into other languages. So, I don't believe we should get too hung up on "tenses." Many Bible Translations have deliberately changed, the tense of the text to make it easier for the reader to relate to as well, which only adds to the confusion.
Another matter that has not been addressed is judgement. In the "once saved always saved," or the "eternally saved and can't lose it" mindset, where does judgement fit in?
"It is appointed to man once to die, and then the judgement."
This is rather problematic if one cannot lose one's salvation or standing before YHWH is it not?
Here's what I know to be true and believe to be true and irrefutable: Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living GOD, YHWH. He was conceived via The Holy Spirit "o'ershadowing" a virgin girl named Miriam (Mary), who remained a virgin until after Jesus was born in Bethlehem.
I believe that Jesus preached the Gospel (Good News) of the Kingdom of GOD for about three and a half years after which time He GAVE Himself up and died as "The Lamb of GOD," shedding His most precious blood on the cross (or "stauros") at Calvary to "...take away the sins of the world," and to reconcile man to GOD. I believe He died "... once for all men."
I believe that He rose on the third day, appeared to many and now sits at the right hand of YHWH. I also believe He will come again for His "Ecclesia" (Church), and that this is most likely to happen very soon.
I believe that there is no other Name by which we may be saved than that of Jesus Christ. I believe that we are saved by faith through the Grace of YHWH, but also that "Faith without works is dead." I don't believe we can become saved by works alone, or in and of or by ourselves. However, I do believe that as is so pointedly made clear in the entire book of James, if we have faith we will produce "works," and if we have The Holy Spirit, we will show "the fruitage of The Spirit." So "works" do play a part in our standing before Christ and GOD.
If we can "choose life or death, the blessing or the malediction," then it becomes clear that we as individuals are not predestined insofar as judgement goes. I *do* however, believe that there are SOME things in our lives that we are "predestined" to do. I am undecided as to whether this just means that YHWH already knows our heart condition and the choices we will make, or if He has a plan for each of us and we have *limited* or *relative* "free will" within that framework.
Finally, I believe (in keeping with 1st Corinthians chapter 13) that no amount of faith OR works will benefit me at all if I do not first and foremost and most importantly have LOVE.
Just my humble opinion.
In the love and peace of Christ, - Jesse.
Now that's just plain dumb. I mean that is stupid to the Nth degree!
Which comes first? How can you have justification without predestination first? There is a reason why the word predesination is used. "Pre" means before, not after. So how can you get to anything "pre" second?
Whoever wrote this crucifies the language more than a Democrat.
If I'm wrong, then, why does Romans 8:30 say SPECIFICALLY, "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified?"
So, let's see. The Apostle Paul said, "Moreover whom he DID predestinate. . ." Hmmm. . . That's past tense. It happened before. Well, then. This must make sense because of the word "predestinate" has the prefix "pre" meaning before.
Now, those he DID predestinate, "them he also called." Who are the called? Those predestined to be with Him, that's who. What about those who were called? "Them he also justified." So, the Lord "called" those "whom he did predestinate." Wow! He didn't call those whom he DID NOT predestinate! That's the Word, right? But those he did predestinate, "them he also called." And those who were called, "them he also justified."
Justification is third in the process, but you insist on making it first and you then call it "logical." If what you say is correct, then why doesn't Romans 8:30 read, "Moreover, whom he did justify, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also predesinated: and whom he predesinated, them he also glorified?" Tell me, FTD, why doesn't Romans 8:30 read this way instead of the way it is in the Bible? You have all the logic here, so, enlighten me, please.
Did indicates past tense. So does the "ed" at the end of call, justify. Right?
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