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Catholic Caucus: Internet Apologetics and the law of diminishing returns

Posted on 04/14/2002 8:01:03 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM

The law of diminishing returns is a business/economics concept that has application in our apostolates, and maybe specifically the FR Catholic Caucus' efforts here.

It refers to the fact that, in the short run, as the amount of one variable input increases, all other inputs held constant, the addition to output from each new input diminishes. This production law cannot be avoided -- if it could, we could feed the world from a flower pot!

What does this all mean?

In application to our energies and efforts here, it means spend your time where your efforts will bear the most fruit.

It is increasingly obvious that the segregation of the FR Forum has driven religious discussion into a "Religion Forum" ghetto.

Previously, religious discussions were posted within the General/News forum under Culture/Society: Discussion of health, education, welfare, drugs, abortion, environment, housing, unions, employment, social security, religion, arts, humanity, sports, and other cultural and societal issues. topic.

Thus, religious discussions were visible to all on the Free Republic Forum, and policing for bigotry and vile attacks and outright lies was more even and appropriately applied.

Now that religious discussions have been exiled to the Religion Forum ghetto, for all intents and purposes, we are no longer part of the vast majority of discussions and interchanges on the overall Free Republic forum.

Furthermore, because they finally exiled us here so that these discussions will not "bother" the rest of the Forum, they have applied a "hands off" policy that allows behavior and words that never would have been tolerated while religious discussions were part of the general Free Republic Forum.

some would say, with some merit, that we are all adults and that we should be allowed and able to engage in bare knuckled debate here.

There is a case to be made for this.

Yet this same bare knuckled debate will only scandalize the folks we really need to reach. See below for a review of "who" our real enemy is and thus where our most energy and efforts should be spent.

Previous to the exile of religion to the Religion Forum ghetto there were vibrant and intense threads on culture of life issues here on the general/news forum. These threads seemingly are few now, with all of us fighting for our lives on pointless theological debate and disparage threads, within the Religion Forum ghetto, and the culture wars are remaining unfought in the general/news forum, and religion has disappeared from that forum.

Admittedly, the scandals have served to cause this as much as the forum structure change.

My humble recommendation?

If you are truly changing someone's heart within a Religion Forum thread or have reason to think you must defend some aspect of our belief against yet another set of lies and slanders, then by all means, engage the fight. Remember though, the more they attack without charity, the more they undercut their own cause.

However, if the thread does nothing but make ALL Christians look like uncharitable folk, kooks and cranks, who are a bunch of infighting hypocrites, shake the dust off your feet, leave quietably, humbly, and charitably, and don't look back. (I've made the mistake far too many times of descending into the mire myself.)

Take a brief respite in those threads where we have been given our marching orders by our very own FR Chaplain, Father Elijah (especially Roman Catholic Concern: Action Plan Repost). Call upon our Patroness for her intercession.

Then break out of this Religion Forum ghetto.

Search all your favorite sites for articles that are appropriate for the General/News forum, stressing culture of life issues. Enter the secular threads about the scandals, pray for wisdom and understanding, and engage the debate there.

Cultivate the General/News forum threads you post or those in which you engage so that, by intellectual debate and informed discussion on their turf, you can still convey the eternal truths this world needs to hear.

Its time to break out of this Religion Forum ghetto, hold your head high as a soldier in Christ's Church Militant, and take back the field.

The scandals are not going to end soon.

But neither can we be idle waiting for a "chance" or a "change" in order to fulfill our mandate to preach the gospel. We have the only thing available to help this world. Lets share it unashamedly, without embarassment, and with Pride to call ourselves members of Christ's True Church!

I think the point has been reached in the the Religion Forum ghetto where the law of diminishing returns takes effect. It does not matter how much more effort we expend in this Religion Forum ghetto, our victories are limited by the small number of those on Religion Forum threads, and our Christian witness is undermined by the vitriol and violence of others calling themselves "Christian." (Incidentally, it was the same recalcitrant and unrepentant vitriol and violence of others calling themselves "Christian" that drove all of us into this ghetto in the first place. Let them stay here and debate how many Calvinistic angels can dance on the head of a pin. We have work to do.)

Below are two excerpts we must read and apply to our efforts here.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
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How to

Win the

Culture War

Peter Kreeft

 

To win any war, the three most necessary things to know are (1) that you are at war, (2) who your enemy is, and (3) what weapons or strategies can defeat him. You cannot win a war (1) if you simply sew peace banners on a battlefield, (2) if you fight civil wars against your allies, or (3) if you use the wrong weapons.

Here is a three point checklist for the culture wars. I assume you would not be reading a magazine called Crisis if you thought all was well. If you don’t know that our entire civilization is in crisis, I hope you had a nice vacation on the moon.

Many minds do seem moonstruck, however, blissfully unaware of the crisis—especially the “intellectuals,” who are supposed to be the most on top of current events. I was dumbfounded to read a cover article in Time devoted to the question: Why is everything getting better? Why is life so good today? Why does everybody feel so satisfied about the quality of life? Time never questioned the assumption, it just wondered why the music on the Titanic sounded so nice.

It turned out, on reading the article, that every single aspect of life that was mentioned, every single reason for life getting better, was economic. People are richer. End of discussion.

Perhaps Time is just Playboy with clothes on. For one kind of playboy, the world is one great big whorehouse. For another kind, it’s one great big piggy bank. For both, things are getting better and better.

There is a scientific refutation of the Pig Philosophy: the statistical fact that suicide, the most in-your-face index of unhappiness, is directly proportionate to wealth. The richer you are, the richer your family is, and the richer your country is, the more likely it is that you will find life so good that you will choose to blow your brains apart.

Suicide among pre-adults has increased 5000% since the “happy days” of the ’50s. If suicide, especially among the coming generation, is not an index of crisis, nothing is.

Night is falling. What Chuck Colson has labeled “a new Dark Ages” is looming. And its Brave New World proved to be only a Cowardly Old Dream. We can see this now, at the end of “the century of genocide” that was christened “the Christian century” at its birth.

We’ve had prophets who warned us: Kierkegaard, 150 years ago, in The Present Age; and Spengler, 100 years ago, in The Decline of the West; and Aldous Huxley, seventy years ago, in Brave New World; and C. S. Lewis, forty years ago, in The Abolition of Man; and above all our popes: Leo XIII and Pius IX and Pius X and above all John Paul the Great, the greatest man in the world, the greatest man of the worst century. He had even more chutzpah than Ronald Reagan, who dared to call Them “the evil empire”: He called Us “the culture of death.” That’s our culture, and his, including Italy, with the lowest birth rate in the world, and Poland, which now wants to share in the rest of the West’s abortion holocaust.

If the God of life does not respond to this culture of death with judgment, God is not God. If God does not honor the blood of the hundreds of millions of innocent victims then the God of the Bible, the God of Israel, the God of orphans and widows, the Defender of the defenseless, is a man-made myth, a fairy tale.

But is not God forgiving?

He is, but the unrepentant refuse forgiveness. How can forgiveness be received by a moral relativist who denies that there is anything to forgive except a lack of self-esteem, nothing to judge but “judgmentalism?” How can a Pharisee or a pop psychologist be saved?

But is not God compassionate?

He is not compassionate to Moloch and Baal and Ashtaroth, and to Caananites who do their work, who “cause their children to walk through the fire.” Perhaps your God is—the God of your dreams, the God of your “religious preference”—but not the God revealed in the Bible.

But is not the God of the Bible revealed most fully and finally in the New Testament rather than the Old? In sweet and gentle Jesus rather than wrathful and warlike Jehovah?

The opposition is heretical: the old Gnostic-Manichaean-Marcionite heresy, as immortal as the demons who inspired it. For “I and the Father are one.” The opposition between nice Jesus and nasty Jehovah denies the very essence of Christianity: Christ’s identity as the Son of God. Let’s remember our theology and our biology: like Father, like Son.

But is not God a lover rather than a warrior?

No, God is a lover who is a warrior. The question fails to understand what love is, what the love that God is, is. Love is at war with hate, betrayal, selfishness, and all love’s enemies. Love fights. Ask any parent. Yuppie-love, like puppy-love, may be merely “compassion” (the fashionable word today), but father-love and mother-love are war.

In fact, every page of the Bible bristles with spears, from Genesis 3 through Revelation 20. The road from Paradise Lost to Paradise Regained is soaked in blood. At the very center of the story is a cross, a symbol of conflict if there ever was one. The theme of spiritual warfare is never absent in scripture, and never absent in the life and writings of a single saint. But it is never present in the religious education of any of my “Catholic” students at Boston College. Whenever I speak of it, they are stunned and silent, as if they have suddenly entered another world. They have. They have gone past the warm fuzzies, the fur coats of psychology-disguised-as-religion, into a world where they meet Christ the King, not Christ the Kitten.

Welcome back from the moon, kids.

Where is the culture of death coming from? Here. America is the center of the culture of death. America is the world’s one and only cultural superpower.

If I haven’t shocked you yet, I will now. Do you know what Muslims call us? They call us “The Great Satan.” And do you know what I call them? I call them right.

But America has the most just, and moral, and wise, and biblical historical and constitutional foundation in all the world. America is one of the most religious countries in the world. The Church is big and rich and free in America.

Yes. Just like ancient Israel. And if God still loves his Church in America, he will soon make it small and poor and persecuted, as he did to ancient Israel, so that he can keep it alive. If he loves us, he will prune us, and we will bleed, and the blood of the martyrs will be the seed of the Church again, and a second spring will come—but not without blood. It never happens without blood, sacrifice, and suffering. The continuation of Christ’s work—if it is really Christ’s work and not a comfortable counterfeit—can never happen without the Cross.

I don’t mean merely that Western civilization will die. That’s a piece of trivia. I mean eternal souls will die. Billions of Ramons and Vladamirs and Janes and Tiffanies will go to Hell. That’s what’s at stake in this war: not just whether America will become a banana republic, or whether we’ll forget Shakespeare, or even whether some nuclear terrorist will incinerate half of humanity, but whether our children and our children’s children will see God forever. That’s what’s at stake in “Hollywood versus America.” That’s why we must wake up and smell the rotting souls. Knowing we are at war is the first requirement for winning it.

 

The next thing we must do to win a war is to know our enemy.

Who is our enemy?

Not Protestants. For almost half a millennium, many of us thought our enemies were Protestant heretics, and addressed that problem by consigning their bodies to battlefields and their souls to Hell. (Echoes of this strategy can still be heard in Northern Ireland.) Gradually, the light dawned: Protestants are not our enemies, they are our “separated brethren.” They will fight with us.

Not Jews. For almost two millennia many of us thought that, and did such Christless things to our “fathers in the faith” that we made it almost impossible for the Jews to see their God—the true God—in us.

Not Muslims, who are often more loyal to their half-Christ than we are to our whole Christ, who often live more godly lives following their fallible scriptures and their fallible prophet than we do following our infallible scriptures and our infallible prophet.

The same is true of the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Quakers.

Our enemies are not “the liberals.” For one thing, the term is almost meaninglessly flexible. For another, it’s a political term, not a religious one. Whatever is good or bad about political liberalism, it’s neither the cause nor the cure of our present spiritual decay. Spiritual wars are not decided by whether welfare checks increase or decrease.

Our enemies are not anti-Catholic bigots who want to crucify us. They are the ones we’re trying to save. They are our patients, not our disease. Our word for them is Christ’s: “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” We say this of the Chinese communist totalitarians who imprison and persecute Catholics, and to the Sudanese Muslim terrorists who enslave and murder Catholics. They are not our enemies, they are our patients. We are Christ’s nurses. The patients think the nurses are their enemies, but the nurses know better.

Our enemies are not even the media of the culture of death, not even Ted Turner or Larry Flynt or Howard Stern or Disney or Time-Warner. They too are victims, patients, though on a rampage against the hospital, poisoning other patients. But the poisoners are our patients too. So are homosexual activists, feminist witches, and abortionists. We go into gutters and pick up the spiritually dying and kiss those who spit at us, if we are cells in our Lord’s Body. If we do not physically go into gutters, we go into spiritual gutters, for we go where the need is.

Our enemies are not heretics within the Church, “cafeteria Catholics,” “Kennedy Catholics,” “I Did It My Way” Catholics. They are also our patients, though they are Quislings. They are the victims of our enemy, not our enemy.

Our enemies are not theologians in so-called Catholic theology departments who have sold their souls for thirty pieces of scholarship and prefer the plaudits of their peers to the praise of God. They are also our patients.

Our enemy is not even the few really bad priests and bishops, candidates for Christ’s Millstone of the Month Award, the modern Pharisees. They too are victims, in need of healing.

Who, then, is our enemy?

There are two answers. All the saints and popes throughout the Church’s history have given the same two answers, for these answers come from the Word of God on paper in the New Testament and the Word of God in flesh in Jesus Christ.

Yet they are not well known. In fact, the first answer is almost never mentioned today. Not once in my life have I ever heard a homily on it, or a lecture by a Catholic theologian.

Our enemies are demons. Fallen angels. Evil spirits.

So says Jesus Christ: “Do not fear those who can kill the body and then has no more power over you. I will tell you whom to fear. Fear him who has power to destroy both body and soul in Hell.”

So says St. Peter, the first pope: “The Devil, like a roaring lion, is going through the world seeking the ruin of souls. Resist him, steadfast in the faith.”

So says St. Paul: “We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers of wickedness in high places.”

So said Pope Leo the XIII, who received a vision of the 20th century that history has proved terrifyingly true. He saw Satan, at the beginning of time, allowed one century in which to do his worst work, and he chose the 20th. This pope with the name and heart of a lion was so overcome by the terror of this vision that he fell into a trance. When he awoke, he composed a prayer for the whole Church to use to get it through the 20th century. The prayer was widely known and prayed after every Mass—until the ’60s: exactly when the Church was struck with that incomparably swift disaster that we have not yet named (but which future historians will), the disaster that has destroyed a third of our priests, two-thirds of our nuns, and nine-tenths of our children’s theological knowledge; the disaster that has turned the faith of our fathers into the doubts of our dissenters, the wine of the Gospel into the water of psychobabble.

The restoration of the Church, and thus the world, might well begin with the restoration of the Lion’s prayer and the Lion’s vision, because this is the vision of all the popes and all the saints and our Lord himself: the vision of a real Hell, a real Satan, and real spiritual warfare.

 

I said there were two enemies. The second is even more terrifying than the first. There is one nightmare even more terrible than being chased and caught and tortured by the Devil. That is the nightmare of becoming a devil. The horror outside your soul is terrible enough; how can you bear to face the horror inside your soul?

What is the horror inside your soul? Sin. All sin is the Devil’s work, though he usually uses the flesh and the world as his instruments. Sin means inviting the Devil in. And we do it. That’s the only reason why he can do his awful work; God won’t let him do it without our free consent. And that’s why the Church is weak and the world is dying: because we are not saints.

And thus we have our third Necessary Thing: the weapon that will win the war and defeat our enemy.

All it takes is saints.

Can you imagine what twelve more Mother Teresas would do for the world? Can you imagine what would happen if just twelve readers of this article offered Christ 100% of their hearts and held back nothing, absolutely nothing?

No, you can’t imagine it, any more than anyone could imagine how twelve nice Jewish boys could conquer the Roman Empire. You can’t imagine it, but you can do it. You can become a saint. Absolutely no one and nothing can stop you. It is your free choice. Here is one of the truest and most terrifying sentences I have ever read (from William Law’s Serious Call): “If you will look into your own heart in complete honesty, you must admit that there is one and only one reason why you are not a saint: you do not wholly want to be.”

That insight is terrifying because it is an indictment. But it is also thrillingly hopeful because it is an offer, an open door. Each of us can become a saint. We really can.

What holds us back? Fear of paying the price.

What is the price? The answer is simple. T.S. Eliot defines the Christian life as: “A condition of complete simplicity/Costing not less than/Everything.” The price is everything: 100%. A worse martyrdom than the quick noose or stake: the martyrdom of dying daily, dying to all your desires and plans, including your plans about how to become a saint. A blank check to God. Complete submission, “islam,” “fiat”—Mary’s thing. Look what that simple Mary-thing did 2000 years ago: It brought God down and saved the world.

It was meant to continue.

If we do that Mary-thing—and only if we do that—then all our apostolates will “work”: our missioning and catechizing and fathering and mothering and teaching and studying and nursing and businessing and priesting and bishoping—everything.

A bishop asked one of the priests of his diocese for recommendations on ways to increase vocations. The priest replied: The best way to attract men in this diocese to the priesthood, Your Excellency, would be your canonization.

Why not yours?

Peter Kreeft is a professor of philosophy at Boston College. Crisis Magazine.

Vol. 16 - No.6 - June 1998

************************************
From "Abandonment TO Divine Providence" by BY THE REV. J. P. DE CAUSSADE, S.J.

Section XII. The Triumph of Humility.

BackContentsNext

SECTION XII. --The Triumph of Humility.


If the divine action is hidden here below under the appearance of weakness, it is in order to increase the merit of souls which are faithful to it; but its triumph is none the less certain.

The history of the world from the beginning is but the history of the struggle between the powers of the world, and of hell, against the souls which are humbly devoted to the divine action. In this struggle all the advantage seems to be on the side of pride, yet the victory always remains with humility. The image of the world is always presented to our eyes as a statue of gold, brass, iron, and clay. This mystery of iniquity, shown in a dream to Nabuchodonosor, is nothing but a confused medley of all the actions, interior and exterior, of the children of darkness. This is also typified by the beast coming out of the pit to make war, from the beginning of time, against the interior and spiritual life of man. All that takes place in our days in the consequence of this war. Monster follows monster out of the pit, which swallows, and vomits them forth again amidst incessant clouds of smoke. The combat between St. Michael and Lucifer, that began in Heaven, still continues. The heart of this once magnificent angel, has become, through envy, an inexhaustible abyss of every kind of evil. He made angel revolt against angel in Heaven, and from the creation of the world his whole energy is exerted to make more criminals among men to fill the ranks of those who have been swallowed up in the pit. Lucifer is the chief of those who refuse obedience to the Almighty. This mystery of iniquity is the very inversion of the order of God; it is the order, or rather, the disorder of the devil.

This disorder is a mystery because, under a false appearance of good, it hides irremediable and infinite evil. Every wicked man, who, from the time of Cain, up to the present moment, has

92-93

declared war against God, has outwardly been great and powerful, making a great stir in the world, and being worshiped by all. But this outward semblance is a mystery. In reality they are beasts which have ascended from the pit one after another to overthrow the order of God. But this order, which is another mystery, has always opposed to them really great and powerful men who have dealt these monsters a mortal wound. As fast as hell vomits them forth, Heaven at the same time creates fresh heroes to combat them. Ancient history, sacred and profane, is but a record of this war. The order of God has ever remained victorious and those who have ranged themselves on the side of God have shared His triumph, and are happy for all eternity. Injustice has never been able to protect deserters. It can reward them only by death, an eternal death.

Those who practise iniquity imagine themselves invincible. O God! who can resist You? If a single soul has the whole world and all hell against it, it need have no fear if, by abandonment, it takes its stand on the side of God and His order.

The monstrous spectacle of wickedness armed with so much power, the head of gold, the body of silver, brass, and iron, is nothing more than the image of clay; a small stone cast at it will scatter it to the four winds of Heaven.

How wonderfully has the Holy Spirit illustrated the centuries of the world! So many startling revelations! so many renowned heroes following each other like so many brilliant stars! So many wonderful events!

All this is like the dream of Nabuchodonosor, forgotten on awaking, however terrible the impression it made at the time.

All these monsters only come into the world to exercise the courage of the children of God, and if these are well trained, God gives them the pleasure of slaying the monsters, and sends fresh athletes into the arena.

And this life is a spectacle to angels, causing continual joy in Heaven, work for saints on earth, and confusion to the devils in hell.

So all that is opposed to the order of God renders it only the more to be adored. All workers of iniquity are slaves of justice, and the divine action builds the heavenly Jerusalem on the ruins of Babylon.


1 posted on 04/14/2002 8:01:04 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: *Catholic_list; patent; notwithstanding; JMJ333; Aunt Polgara; AgThorn; IM2Phat4U...
Some thoughts...other Catholic Caucus members, please share your input. I may be terribly wrong, but I've been thinking and praying a lot about this.
2 posted on 04/14/2002 8:04:14 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
This is purely speculation and I could be entirely wrong but I have wondered whether in some way the current outrageous scandals afflicting the church in the U.S. and the conflict in the Holy Land which has brought violence directly within the vicinity of the Church of the Nativity are ways that God has been calling the world to reflect on the spiritual drama of our world - the struggle between good and evil. Perhaps these are ways to think about what the Church represents - to present the moral vision of goodness and to offer the peace of Christ to the whole world. Worth pondering.
3 posted on 04/14/2002 9:12:41 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: Dr. Brian Kopp; patent; american colleen; saradippity; Salvation
I have consciously been spending more time on the News forum, but I also have tried to post some positive things for Catholics on the Religion forum since Father is away for a time and we all need positive posts about our faith even while we are in the trenches. If I am mistaken about this, I will stop posting such things to the Religion forum. I just want to be of good service to the rest of the Catholic Caucus from whom I've learned so much and for whom I pray daily.

I just think it is more important for me to be involved with threads that discuss the sanctity of life, the fate of Palestinian Catholics, etc. I have now sworn off the Neverending Nightmare Thread. And for my own spiritual health, I will not be posting to some folks. However, I do want to remain in dialogue with lapsed Catholics who are in pain but still seem to have an interest in the Church -- I want to love them back into the Church -- even though at times I want to strangle them.

Sometimes I am just a curmudgeon and a hot head, but what I want to do is to be an encourager for my fellow Catholics and to be a sound witness on secular themed threads. I pray.
Mary, Queen of All Saints, pray for us.

5 posted on 04/14/2002 9:38:50 PM PDT by history_matters
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To: allend
What is your argumentation for saying that?

I have seen a number of threads deleted from the NEWS FORUM and banished to the Religion Forum because one or two individuals whined that the threads were too religious and pinged the moderators, who seem only too happy to continue this segregation.

6 posted on 04/14/2002 9:41:02 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
In application to our energies and efforts... it means spend your time where your efforts will bear the most fruit.

Where is that? Wait, I'll answer.

Out in the real world.

With real people.

7 posted on 04/14/2002 9:45:50 PM PDT by The Giant Apricots
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To: history_matters
If I am mistaken about this, I will stop posting such things to the Religion forum.

No, not at all. There are some things that obviously belong on the Religion Forum, as the FRee Republic system is now established.

Unfortunately, those same threads, previously, would have been an integral part of the News Forum, posted under the Culture/Society topic heading, and the thread and all posts to it would have been viewed by all FReepers viewing the latest threads and latest messages pages, not just those who now visit the Religion Forum.

There is still a need to post threads to the Religion Forum (as no other forum exists here and the moderators pull these threads from the news forums with an iron fist) and there is still the need to post on the religion forum threads.

However, the need for evangelization may be better served, and our limited time better utilized, by moving away from the Religion Forum into the New Forums where there is not only more exposure to the ideas but more need of them! Most on the Religion Forum are already committed Christians. And most on The NeverEnding Story threads are Type A personalities who are not interested in honest dialogue.

8 posted on 04/14/2002 9:51:14 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: The Giant Apricots
Out in the real world. With real people.

I certainly agree, and speak about God with everyone who will listen. Yet those visiting these forums are real people too.

9 posted on 04/14/2002 9:53:12 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: allend
You really haven't earned your stripes on those threads until someone has called you a pedophile.

Does "[nazi] stormtrooper," and "the Jack Chick of Roman Catholics" count?

10 posted on 04/14/2002 10:48:15 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

To: allend
You really haven't earned your stripes on those threads until someone has called you a pedophile.

.....and with little to no effort.

12 posted on 04/14/2002 11:34:49 PM PDT by St.Chuck
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To: The Giant Apricots
Several posters here have testified of their conversion or return to the Catholic Church due to the efforts and quality of Catholic posters here. They are people in the real world, they count. All of Christ's children count and the Internet has become a wonderful tool for bringing us together.
13 posted on 04/14/2002 11:54:13 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: goldenstategirl
Is being a part of the Catholic church a goal unto itself? Rescuing infidels from the harrowing straights of Protestantism?
14 posted on 04/15/2002 12:00:41 AM PDT by The Giant Apricots
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To: history_matters
#5 Good post h_m and please keep posting. The uplifting, positive threads are like water in the desert here (a desert filled with coyotes and such;)
15 posted on 04/15/2002 12:12:35 AM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: The Giant Apricots
Those are your words, not mine.
16 posted on 04/15/2002 12:16:25 AM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: The Giant Apricots
Is being a part of the Catholic Church a goal unto itself?

Sharing something that provides ineffable joy is a natural consequence of being human. And to think...it is just a foretaste!

17 posted on 04/15/2002 12:23:02 AM PDT by St.Chuck
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
Good post DBK. Don't agree with everything you have to say - I think you understate the importance of cross-confession discussion of doctrine. But I've struggled with the same issues, and have been working at putting my efforts in to getting God better ROI.

Especially thankful for the Kreft article, which I've never read. Have copied for future use. I recommend to anyone interested in the topic the "Unseen Warfare" series of books, by Fr. Jack Sparks, available from Light and Life Press.

Christ Bless.

18 posted on 04/15/2002 4:36:00 AM PDT by Wordsmith
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
The NeverEnding Story threads are Type A personalities who are not interested in honest dialogue.

This guy does not know what he is talking about!

Anyone truly interested will not find a better KINDER, group of people then the regulars on TNS. We welcome all newcomers who have a topic for serious discussion. The regulars have been posting for over a year and yes, at times we get silly and have fun, but when an honest discussion is brought forward we have lively discussion. It might get hot but we all respect each other.

Becky

19 posted on 04/15/2002 6:32:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: goldenstategirl
Several posters here have testified of their conversion or return to the Catholic Church due to the efforts and quality of Catholic posters here. They are people in the real world, they count. All of Christ's children count and the Internet has become a wonderful tool for bringing us together.

I was rasied catholic and am now a Fundamentalist. The posts from catholics on these threads makes me think you all have persecution complexes. Most generally when some one disagrees with a catholic they immediatly yell "Catholic basher/hater, bigot, anti-catholic. You all are the ones who do not like serious discussion, because you can't discuss the bible, only catechism which doesn't hold up to the bible.

Becky

20 posted on 04/15/2002 6:48:16 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: goldenstategirl
True.

Mea culpa.

21 posted on 04/15/2002 6:53:40 AM PDT by The Giant Apricots
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
...persecution complexes...

I like the Free Republic, because I like the truth. If I see a bold-faced lie or a misunderstanding, I will attempt to correct it. If you suggest that we roll over and accept the Protestant propaganda, or just want someone to be a "yes-Man" for you, then you shouldn't be participating in FreeRepublic discussions.

There are misunderstandings here. There are those seeking clarification. There are difference of opinion. Fine. This is not "bashing".

However, I have found that there are a few Protestants here who need self-justification for their Protestantism by pointing out why they are not Catholic. They are not really Protestants but they are non-Catholics. These few "bashers" choose to remain ignorant, and their ignorance does no service to Catholicism, Protestantism, Christianity or the Free Republic whatsoever. And I will point them out for who they are, when I can. No, I don't feel persecuted, I have contempt for those who choose to remain ignorant, whether they be liberals, Protestants or Catholics.

22 posted on 04/15/2002 8:30:07 AM PDT by kidd
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
"This is purely speculation and I could be entirely wrong but I have wondered whether in some way the current outrageous scandals afflicting the church in the U.S. and the conflict in the Holy Land which has brought violence directly within the vicinity of the Church of the Nativity are ways that God has been calling the world to reflect on the spiritual drama of our world - the struggle between good and evil. Perhaps these are ways to think about what the Church represents - to present the moral vision of goodness and to offer the peace of Christ to the whole world. Worth pondering."

I have wandered into this field of speculation myself, and realized one thing: The Century of Satan is past. Perhaps this is God's way of exposing all the lies committed in His Name in the century that traditionally was given over to the Father of Lies. Perhaps we are seeing the vindication of God and His Truth. Pray for mercy, and pray for JUSTICE.

23 posted on 04/15/2002 9:00:15 AM PDT by redhead
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To: redhead
Yes, dear redhead, I believe that you are right.
24 posted on 04/15/2002 9:15:24 AM PDT by history_matters
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
You Calvinists respect each other that is true. However, your group treat Catholics, Wesleyan-Arminians, and others with contempt and derision, and some of your number seem to regard any non-Calvinist as open season wildlife.
25 posted on 04/15/2002 9:18:03 AM PDT by history_matters
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To: history_matters
I am NOT a calvinist.

Becky

26 posted on 04/15/2002 9:23:28 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Lovely.
27 posted on 04/15/2002 9:25:35 AM PDT by history_matters
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
"Most generally when some one disagrees with a catholic they immediatly yell "Catholic basher/hater, bigot, anti-catholic. You all are the ones who do not like serious discussion, because you can't discuss the bible, only catechism which doesn't hold up to the bible."

This is generalization. We are individuals, and each of us has his own walk with God. Not ONCE, in all the posts I have made to any "Catholic" thread, have I ever whined about "Catholic bashers/haters/bigots/anti-catholics," nor have I ever heard even one of the REAL Catholic posters to the threads make such a remark. If this is all you appear to be getting out of these threads, maybe they are not the threads you should be on. I'm not saying I don't want you here, but I am saying that sweeping generalizations of this kind do us all a grave and unChristian disservice.

28 posted on 04/15/2002 9:36:34 AM PDT by redhead
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
With all due respect, I think you have this all wrong. In the last year, FR has grown tremendously, and, as a result some changes have had to be made.

This new organization is one of those changes.

It is increasingly obvious that the segregation of the FR Forum has driven religious discussion into a "Religion Forum" ghetto.............Now that religious discussions have been exiled to the Religion Forum ghetto, for all intents and purposes, we are no longer part of the vast majority of discussions and interchanges on the overall Free Republic forum.

While it's true that the first time you come to the forums page, it defaults to the "News/Activism" forum, but on the right side there's a link for the "Religion" forum, even if you're not a member and just a "lurker".

This separation was done to add more organization to the forums, to make it easier for those that don't know FR that well to get to general areas of interest. Thus, to make the argument "We've lost an audience" is false, in my opinion, because it can be argued that you never had the audience to begin with (there's no way to know what the number of lurkers were before the change, so you can never really know) However the point remains: It's only one click away. And, once you're in the Religion forum, you can refresh the page all you want and you'll stay there. If so many people are put off by a simple click, do you really think they want to engage in any highly intellectual discussion? Would you want to engage such a person in such a discussion?

In conclusion, I think you are being unfair to the creators of this site, because Jim and John's original intention was to create a whole new area that could expand the number of religious discussion, and make it easier to find them!

I think they've succeeded.

29 posted on 04/15/2002 9:50:23 AM PDT by FourtySeven
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
In application to our energies and efforts here, it means spend your time where your efforts will bear the most fruit.

It has been my experience that while I may clear up some untruths on a Catholic bashing thread, many are not open to looking at the other side of the coin, and so the arguments would seem to fall on deaf ears.

What you have posted here is good advice, but sometimes, the Lord does call us to evangelize the unchurched, the Protestant and the inactive Catholic as well.

30 posted on 04/15/2002 10:03:54 AM PDT by Salvation
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To: history_matters
I really like your screen name, as I consider history to be at the core of my Catholic apologetics. It is interesting to look back at past scandals and see the outcome.

Looking back 500 years, the church was in turmoil caused by the Babylonian captivity and schism. The church was also weakened during the renaissance by humanism, nationalism, and the corrupting effects of wealth and power.

Church offices provided high incomes, which eventually led to simony. Then, once a Bishop or Cardinal gained office through simony, he often tried to gain as much wealth as he could. Bishops often lived outside the dioceses and totally neglected spiritual duties. A Bishop named Rupert Von Simmern [bishop of strausbourg] held office for 38 years and never once said mass. Nepotism was also running rampant, and many priests and bishops led immoral lives.

Nevertheless, not unlike many good faithful catholics here at FR, many people were loyal and faithful, serving God the best they could. The church was and is free from heresy.

Then as now, it was easy to forget that Christ had made a careful distinction between the powers He gave the head of His church and the morality of the Pope himself. That is one reason why Christ chose the apostle who denied Him to be the first pope: To show that Christ would protect the church even when the Pope [or in this case the bishops and priests] acted wrongly.

Then as now, it isn't enough to calm the fury in those who hate the Catholic church, even though no heresy is being taught. They would rather help to achieve the destruction of Catholicism then help us rid the church of homosexual infiltrators. Many people choose to believe that Christ has abandoned His church and again Christiandom is like a pile of dry tinder, awaiting a spark to set it off into a roaring fire.

Catholics need to get out their rosaries and pray hard.

31 posted on 04/15/2002 11:07:04 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
Thank you for your inspiring and beautiful post. It is wonderful to have you back posting now that Lent is over and past.

Yes, let us pray hard!

32 posted on 04/15/2002 11:10:59 AM PDT by history_matters
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To: FourtySeven;dr. brian kopp
In conclusion, I think you are being unfair to the creators of this site, because Jim and John's original intention was to create a whole new area that could expand the number of religious discussion, and make it easier to find them!
I think they've succeeded.

I concur. God will draw people to the religious "ghetto" just as easily as to the news forum if that's his will.

I for one appreciate not having to read through countless posts calling us religious fanatics and lunatics, as was often the case when religious threads were only on the news forum.

And although I don't always agree with the sentiments, I do like the fact that we have greater freedom now to express our ideas with less fear of reprisal.

33 posted on 04/15/2002 11:14:07 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: history_matters
I also agree that some calvinists on this forum see other religions, but especially Catholicism, as open season for condemnation. This isn't surprising since that is what John Calvin himself encouraged. I have wondered why modern day lutherns do not have the hatred for Catholic that Calvinists do.

I have also used Luther and Calvin [on my profile] as a means of apologetics because the doctrine they taught was so far removed from Christianity as it had been taught for the previous 1500 years, but they used the scandals plaguing the church to revolt instead of reform.

Luther [a 34-year old augustinian monk] had a despairing belief in his own sinfulness. He meditated often on hell, death, punishment, and Christ as a stern judge instead of a loving savior. He came to feel that his sins were so great that not even God was powerful enough to forgive them, that he could do nothing to make himself holy. Finally he concluded that faith alone could save him. Nothing he could do could possibly persuade God to forgive his sins, because they were so great--but that if he believed in Christ as the redeemer, then God would "overlook" his sins and pretend that they weren't there.

Orthodox Christianity since the time of Christ, has taught that Christ's death on the cross earned grace for us. Grace then made the Christian into a new human being. It wasn't that God overlooked the person's sins, but that they were gone. Any action performed in the state of grace and united to Christ is meritorious. Through these actions, a person earns more grace, growing holier and closer to God.

Luther taught that man stayed the same, that we couldn't earn any more grace or become closer to God. He believed we were evil men, who God would take into His presence anyway if we believed in Christ. He also condemed the whole idea of indulgences, saying that we could never do anything to remove punishment we deserve.

I have a quote from Luther, cited in The Protestant Reformation Doubleday, Garden City, NY-1963, which shows what happens when emotional and intellectual energy is directed toward the destruction of Catholicism.

"As for me, the die is cast: I despise alike the favor and fury of Rome; I do not wish to be reconciled with her or to ever hold any communion with her. Let her condemn and burn my books; I, in turn, unless I can find no fire, will condemn and publicly burn the whole pontifical law, that swamp of heresies."

However, we see the Church has prevailed and will continue to in the future.

34 posted on 04/15/2002 11:33:47 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: history_matters
Thank you also for coming to the defense of good and faithful Catholics. You are very much appreciated. Regards.
35 posted on 04/15/2002 11:35:22 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
I can only speak for myself, but I have never called anyone on FR a "Catholic-basher" or anything of the sort. I believe in frank, honest, KIND discourse on religion. I have many Protestant friends and I love them both as my friends and as Christians. They are good people who love God. We disagree on some things, but we respect each other.

I have encountered some people I do not care to respond to because I have felt they were antagonistic, but others who disagree with Catholic teaching really are interested in why Catholics believe what they believe, and I am happy to discuss my faith and the Catholic Church and why I am a Catholic. Sometimes, I will correct a misconception or untruth someone has posted, not because they are lying, just because they don't know and repeat what they have heard, thinking it's the truth about the Church.

Anyway, the point of this is that while I agree some Catholics do feel persecuted -- and in the secular, non-FR world I do believe Catholics are persecuted by the media and others -- except for very isolated posts which I ignore, I have never felt such here on FR.

It's important to remember -- on both sides of the Catholic/Protestant debate -- that we agree on far more than we disagree on. We have so much in common, not only in our Faith but in our politics. The pro-life movement brings Catholics and Protestants together working towards a common goal of ending the murder of innocent children. This is a great and noble goal, and it is something we can do together. That is just one example of our unity, even in our division.

God bless.

36 posted on 04/15/2002 11:43:00 AM PDT by Gophack
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Becky I've noticed you are quite drawn to the Catholic threads. Most of us realize why. I've also noticed that you have a very high degree of hostility to us. I hope you find the healing you seek here.

P.S. If you were really through with us, you wouldn't bother clicking on any of these threads.

37 posted on 04/15/2002 11:56:15 AM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
I'm torn on the whole issue of having a separate forum or not. I believe, if we want, we can post to both news and to religion (correct me if I'm wrong.)

I'm inclined to think that for those of us who enjoy debating religious issues, keeping it separate is a good idea. We may not get a lot of converts, but I don't necessarily think that converting people is the basis for our debates here on FR. I use this forum to hone my own apologetics skills so that when I am off-line, I can better answer detractors of my faith. In addition, I see this forum as an ecumenical tool to bring us closer together by highlighting not only our differences, but where we agree.

I can tell you that I have become a stronger, more devout Catholic since debating my faith on FR. Where I didn't know an answer to a question, I researched and studied until I could answer the question. I have read more religious books and articles this past year -- and more of the Bible -- than I have in the first 31 years of my life. I am ashamed that it has taken me so long to "get with the program", but now that I am I feel more empowered, more energized, and more blessed than ever before in my life.

Anyway, that's MHO. Thank you for your great post ... I always enjoy reading your finds!

38 posted on 04/15/2002 12:02:35 PM PDT by Gophack
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To: Gophack
I believe, if we want, we can post to both news and to religion (correct me if I'm wrong.)

Technically you are correct. Now, in reality, this is what happens:


To: Dr. Brian Kopp

Didn't the management create a special forum for this type of topic?

5 posted on 4/8/02 9:03 PM Eastern by jo6pac
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To: jo6pac; Admin Moderator; Dr. Brian Kopp

Yes, the management did create a separate forum for this type of post. ...

13 posted on 4/8/02 10:01 PM Eastern by GovernmentShrinker
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I've seen this happen on several threads now, and the moderators swiftly oblidge they who believe a "Free Republic" should be discussed sans religion.

39 posted on 04/15/2002 6:03:58 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
I don't know what the solution is, so I defer to others more knowledgeable than I.

However, I have not had a problem posting on other threads religious themes provided my comments relate to the topic being discuss.

I believe that religion does play an important role in society, and that sometimes the answers to major political problems can be found in religion and morality.

40 posted on 04/15/2002 6:21:07 PM PDT by Gophack
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To: The Giant Apricots
I think that, for me, becoming a Catholic WAS Just that. I do not say it is a prison all need release from, but for me, the protesting was in the way of the worship. I have seen so much energy on these threads devoted to the denial of Catholicism, rather than the affirmation of Christianity. I went through the same thing myself, so I know. I do feel rescued.

v.

41 posted on 04/15/2002 7:43:37 PM PDT by ventana
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To: ventana;goldenstategirl;Dr. Brian Kopp
Protestants are drawn to Catholic threads because there are no Protestant threads! And at base, Christianity is Christianity.

While I believe and contend that the Catholic Church needs to start a wave of mass excommunications of all the gay, pro-abort sorts, I'm equally happy to critique Protestant denominations when they need to change: for example, the United Methodist Church recently appointed a minister to serve Planned Parenthood...if that's not sacrilege, nothin' is.

42 posted on 04/15/2002 9:52:37 PM PDT by The Giant Apricots
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
I have wondered whether in some way the current outrageous scandals afflicting the church in the U.S. and the conflict in the Holy Land which has brought violence directly within the vicinity of the Church of the Nativity are ways that God has been calling the world to reflect on the spiritual drama of our world - the struggle between good and evil.

Imagine how low we would go if we didn't have militant Islam to worry about. Sadly, it seems like we need this thorn in our side.

43 posted on 04/16/2002 5:15:49 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
Speaking of the threat of militant Islam, Pat Buchanan was on EWTN last night being interviewed by Raymond Arroyo. He was talking about the "death of the West." Whatever one might think of Buchanan, the population stats he was referring to are rather frightening. Good interview, by the way. EWTN will probably run this again.
44 posted on 04/16/2002 10:26:40 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
You all are the ones who do not like serious discussion, because you can't discuss the bible, only catechism which doesn't hold up to the bible.

Plenty of us can seriously discuss both the Bible and the Catechism.

By the way, you do know where the Bible came from, don't you?

45 posted on 04/16/2002 5:08:26 PM PDT by SMEDLEYBUTLER
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To: JMJ333
Have you ever read Luthers' 1521 letter to Melanchthon entitled, "Let Your Sins Be Strong"? I also recently found several quotes of Luthers about the Blessed Virgin Mary through Dave Armstrongs site, Martin Luther's Devotion to Mary. In particular his 1527 sermon, "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God".
46 posted on 04/16/2002 5:15:37 PM PDT by SMEDLEYBUTLER
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Yeah, sure, that was a heck of a charitable welcome I received from you the first time I posted there. I suggested a book to tiki and you felt (reasonably) that it was directed to you. I apologized TWICE for offending you and you continued harping about it among other posters without even condescending to acknowledge my apology. Is that what you mean by 'kind'?
47 posted on 04/16/2002 5:53:35 PM PDT by constitutiongirl
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To: SMEDLEYBUTLER
No, I haven't read that particular sermon. Thanks for the link.

I have another quote, which comes from the book that I referenced earlier. It doesn't list the sermon or work that it was taken from. Perhaps you know?

It rather shows the extreme in his views.

"Be a sinner and sin on bravely, but have stronger faith and rejoice in Christ, who is the voctor of sin, death, and the world. Do not for a moment that this life is the abiding place of justice: sin must be committed. To you it ought to be sufficient that you acknowledge the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world.; the sin cannot tear you away from him, even though you commit adultary a hundred times a day, and commit as many murders."

48 posted on 04/16/2002 6:03:26 PM PDT by JMJ333
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voctor=victor

oops!

49 posted on 04/16/2002 6:08:49 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: eodguy
Re: #48

Nevermind about the ten commandments, I suppose. I wonder what Luther thought about the bible passage where Jesus said he came not to change the law, but to fulfill it.

Any little excuse to throw off moral responsibility.

50 posted on 04/16/2002 6:12:59 PM PDT by JMJ333
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