How I Changed My Mind About Mary

e3mil.com ^ | 5/6/02 | Mark Shea

[xzins]

Swapping ideas and Greek. These folks have generally discussed pretty congenially with me.

[xzins]

plnrns xaritos: just as I thought. The Greek would render it as a combination of "full" and of "grace." Is there an alternate reading that has "plnrns xaritos" in the Luke 1:28 passage? (I don't have my text with me...it's still in shipment from Oklahoma...I recently moved.)

As you say, though, if that "plevnw" language were to result in Mary being "immaculately conceived," then it would also have to apply to the Saint Stephen.

What we have, then, is what I orignally stated: the only argument for the "immaculate conception" is a logically derived one. That is, pre-incarnate Jesus, knowing Mary was to be his mother, saw fit to give her the gift of perfection for His benefit and for the removal from him of "original sin," a doctrine that is itself suspect.

[RnMomof7]

Yea I had a nice conversation with my former faith family on this topic too.But the reality is that tradition and doctrine are not easily changed..Today someone that is not RC sent me The Memorare to ask me how one can not see that as praying TO Mary...It was funny I told him ,I still know that prayer by heart and can repeat it word for word..so deep is the training of Catholic children ..it is an act of God to understand the true spiritual nature of it xzins.....

[drstevej]

My greek text is also not with me. In my software the word is from karitow (vocative, 2nd person singular, past perfect participle) to favor highly, to have shown grace to [Liddell & Scott Lexicon]; to show kindness to [Louw & Nida Lexicon].

[Wrigley]

Mary could have said no??? How praytell could she have done that? Self-aborted?

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

She would not have become pregnant if she had not consented to carry the Christ child. It was her choice (read free will) to submit to God's design. God is not a rapist.

Mary said, "I am the servant of the Lord. Let it be done unto me according to thy word." With that the angel left her.

[RnMomof7]

She would not have become pregnant if she had not consented to carry the Christ child. It was her choice (read free will) to submit to God's design. God is not a rapist.

Just as all of us that have met the grace of God personally...she desired God...she chose what is natural to one that sees God..go back into the OT and read what happened EVERY time man met God..He said here I am Lord. That goldie is the effect of God's grace...:>))

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Mom, I wouldn't disagree with that one bit. We are completely on the same page in regards to that.

[RnMomof7]

twice in one week,..a record *grin*

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

You're reading my mind tonight. I was just thinking about you the first time you posted just now...LOL..

[tiki]

It is what is in your heart that matters. I know you guys, you want to nit pick us to death with accusations and your own misunderstandings. I've heard the arguments more than I ever wanted to and we'll have to agree to disagree. When God wants you to know the whole truth, you will, whether it is in this life or the next.

[Wrigley]

Last I looked in the Bible it said "You will" not "Will you?"

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

I think in parsing words and examining speech patterns no point is proved. Word usage varies from translation to translation. The point is this: God gave each and every one of us free will. Like Mary, at any given moment we can say yes or no to God. Like Mary, we can choose to be vessels of God's grace and salvation (although in her situation it manifested in His physical being).

When we are full of God's grace, as the devout Jewish girl Mary was, then we submit to God's will more fully. Yet to say that none of us have a choice in the matter takes this discussion to an entirely different place. It becomes an issue of the nature of God Himself.

[Zipporah]

The immaculate conception of which you speak has no biblical basis and is the creation of man ..yes I know you will disagree.. oh well.

[Zipporah]

You make mention of Calvin AND Luther.. as being in agreement regarding Mary.. see the difference between what I believe and what you believe can be explained in this way, I don't care what either MAN believes or believed or taught for that matter FOR if it is in contridiction to scripture then they were dead wrong.

[Wrigley]

Parsing of words? How can you say that? You brought it up, so show me the different translations have it different. I have read them and I don't see where God gave Mary a choice.

Luke 1:31 "You will..." NIV Luke 1:31 "And, behold, thou shalt conceive..." KJV

[restornu]

His point is that Mary said "Yes" to God

goldenstategirl, I like you but that was a little too much for me to kid about!

[drstevej]

"Are you aware, for example, that Martin Luther had the Assumption of Mary put on his tomb?"

=====

Bogus! see... Martin Luther's Tomb / Epitaph for Henning Goeden

Henceforth desist in posting this disinformation. A retraction is in order too in the name of intellectual honesty.

[drstevej]

Bump to RnMom for a great link. Post #118

[nickcarraway]

What does full of grace mean in these two verses that makes sense to say of BOTH Stephen and Jesus?

I'm glad you brought this up. Look at the whole quote here:

Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, wrought great wonders and signs among the people.

However you posted it this way:

And Stephen, full of grace and power, wrought great wonders and signs among the people.

Grace and power is not Grace.

(Sorry about the delay. I was busy and coouldn't get back here until now)

Plus, one was the message of God delivered by the Angel Gabriel.