For Whom did Christ die? - Puritan Logic (Calvinism)

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[CCWoody]

FOR WHO DID CHRIST DIE?

John Owen

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The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

1. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
2. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
3. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

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[RnMomof7]

READ this again :>)

[Jerry_M]

"God is COMMANDING all men everywhere to repent. Yet most aren't. Doesn't this mean that some men are stronger than God? How can anyone resist a direct command by God? And if God knows who is going to repent and who isn't, then why is he wasting time commanding every man to repent? Why doesn't he just command the elect to repent?"

Silly argument. A logical extension would be this question: Why did God waste His time commanding Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree?

(Don't you daily resist direct commands from God?)

[DouglasKC]

God is COMMANDING all men everywhere to repent. Yet most aren't. Doesn't this mean that some men are stronger than God? How can anyone resist a direct command by God? And if God knows who is going to repent and who isn't, then why is he wasting time commanding every man to repent? Why doesn't he just command the elect to repent?
Doug Listen real close shhhhhhhhhhhh the unregenerate man can not HEAR that command. It is not a matter of strength..that puts repentance in "huaman will" area..and as I proved to you with scripture..repentance is a gift from God..

Oh. Okay. God is commanding ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent even though he knows that some men can't hear him. Hmmmm. Well taking into account your interpetation, that means that reading this verse God wills to give the gift of repentence to all men everywhere...yet some can't hear him....correct?

[DouglasKC]

"God is COMMANDING all men everywhere to repent. Yet most aren't. Doesn't this mean that some men are stronger than God? How can anyone resist a direct command by God? And if God knows who is going to repent and who isn't, then why is he wasting time commanding every man to repent? Why doesn't he just command the elect to repent?"
Silly argument. A logical extension would be this question: Why did God waste His time commanding Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree?

As scripture proves, it's God's will that all men everywhere should repent. If you believe that God is absolutely sovereign, then how can anyone possibly be going against God's will? Does God command that things be done against his will?

[Jerry_M]

Your argument in 104 is even sillier than before. God commands lots of things knowing that mankind will violate them. The fact that sin exists at all blows your arguments to smithereens.

Have you violated any of His commands today? (If you say no, then yyou just did!)

[DouglasKC]

Your argument in 104 is even sillier than before. God commands lots of things knowing that mankind will violate them. The fact that sin exists at all blows your arguments to smithereens.
Have you violated any of His commands today? (If you say no, then yyou just did!)

Do you agree in reading this verse:

Act 17:30 Truly, then, God overlooking the times of ignorance, now He strictly commands all men everywhere to repent,

that it is God's will that all men should receive his gift of repentence?

[CCWoody]

I said:

You would be suggesting that the Lord promised to pay for all the sins in the whole world! Scripture source please....

to which you responded: Gladly!

And then proceeded to misuse scripture to support the premise that Jesus promised to pay for all the sins in the whole world. Well, He did nothing of the sort. However, given your assumption that He did, please explain:

• Why Jesus failed in His promise to pay for all the sins seeing that I will cite as proof the Revelation of John which says that people will indeed burn in the Lake of Fire for all eternity.

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May I ask you, then, to back THIS up with Scripture? ~ Elsie

Certainly:

• Rev 14:9-11 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud boice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength and into the cup of His indignation. And he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

To assert that Jesus has promised to pay for all the sins in the whole wide world is to declare that:

• Jesus has paid for all the sins of a person who will burn forever in the Lake of Fire and make the Propitiation of Christ to have been done in vain.
  OR

• very nearly risk the curse of Revelation where God will add to him all the plagues written in this book to fall upon your own head by declaring that none will ever suffer in the Lake of Fire.

However, given your assumption that He did promise to pay for all the sins in the whole world--I am charitably assuming that you are neither a Universalist or counting the Blood of Jesus a vain thing--please explain:

• Why Jesus failed in His promise to pay for all the sins!

[Jerry_M]

No.

[DouglasKC]

Do you agree in reading this verse:
Act 17:30 Truly, then, God overlooking the times of ignorance, now He strictly commands all men everywhere to repent,
that it is God's will that all men should receive his gift of repentence?

No.

What was Paul talking about then? It's impossible for me to read it any other way. Paul is saying that it's God's will that all men everywhere should receive his gift of repentence. He's trying to give his gift of repentence to all men, everywhere says Paul.

[Jerry_M]

If it was God's will that all men repent and believe, then all men would repent and believe. Thus, your understanding of this verse is flawed.

It is God's requirement that all men repent and believe. However, they will not until they are born again. They are only born again by the working of God's Spirit. He works where He wills.

We preach "repent and believe". Never mind that only those God has chosen to repent and believe will, we still preach that message to all men. "Many are called, few are chosen".

[DouglasKC]

If it was God's will that all men repent and believe, then all men would repent and believe. Thus, your understanding of this verse is flawed.

It is? Why would Paul say something that is so clear, yet so wrong? When God commands something, isn't that the same as saying God wills it? And if God wills everyone to repentence, then isn't he saying that he wills to give the gift of repentence to all men?

How do you interpet this verse considering the language that Paul is using here?

[Jerry_M]

First off, I have believed from the get-go that you have been too inclusive in your interpretation of "all men", but haven't, until now, felt that pointing this out would help our discussion.

As you yourself (on this thread or the other) pointed out, this verse needs to be read in context. Paul is speaking to Greeks, in Athens, and is pointing out that God is saving non-Jews and calling them to repent, due to the fact that the mystery of the Gospel is being revealed to men of every nation. "Pas anthropos" in this verse really means "all manner of men", not just one type of men (the Jews).

However, even with that said, we also see in Scripture that it is the command of God that all men obey Him, and that disobedience to God is sin. Since God has allowed sin to exist, then it cannot be his perfect insurmountable will that there be no sin.

Now, I really have to get off of here for awhile. Hopefully one of the others will point out some Scriptural examples of "pas" not meaning "all without exception".

[CCWoody]

The atonement was not a transaction that bought the forgiveness of an exact number of sins, but a contract between the Father and Son, which purchased universal reconciliation for all those who would throw down the arms of rebellion and accept the pardon offered in the precious Blood of Christ.

Did you notice this part Steve? Most people don't recognize that this Covenant is between the Father and the Son. Election is determined by the Father; no one CAN come unless the Father draws him. The Son is willing to save ALL who are elected by the Father.

[CCWoody]

So you do believe the atonement was transactional and that sins are "paid for" by a certain amount of suffering. You believe if Christ has suffered a little more, a few more people could have been saved, or, if He suffered a little less, a few less could have been saved. Is the correct?

God is a Being of infinite worth.

When man transgresses against God, he is committing a transgression of infinite magnitude.

When a Being of intinite worth makes a Propitiation for a man, he is making a transaction of infinite value.

Because by one man all were made transgressors by one Man all can be restored.

Election is determined by the Father.

The Son is willing to save ALL whom the Father gives to the Son.

Thus, the nature of the Atonement is such that it is sufficient for all the sins of the whole world, but effective only for the elect.

[editor-surveyor]

"Real Calvinists don't dance!"

But do they eat quiche (or keeesh...) ???

[DouglasKC]

As you yourself (on this thread or the other) pointed out, this verse needs to be read in context. Paul is speaking to Greeks, in Athens, and is pointing out that God is saving non-Jews and calling them to repent, due to the fact that the mystery of the Gospel is being revealed to men of every nation. "Pas anthropos" in this verse really means "all manner of men", not just one type of men (the Jews).

As I also pointed out in the other thread they weren't talking about jews. The verse was in reference to an idol that the pagan greeks had setup to the "unknown God". Paul was telling them: You were ignorant about the unknown God, so I'm telling you that he want all men everywhere to repent.

"Pas anthropos" is ALL MEN. If it were talking about types of men, or jews versus gentiles, or nations, then another word would have been used, probably "ethnos", or perhaps "genos". "Pas ethnos" would be all nations. "Pas genos" would be all types or countries.

In either case, it's impossible to read pas anthropos as all nations, or types of men. The wording is clear and unambiguous in the Greek. The writer could have used other words to express your interpetation, but didn't.

[Elsie]

God is a Being of infinite worth.
I agree

When man transgresses against God, he is committing a transgression of infinite magnitude.
I agree

When a Being of intinite worth makes a Propitiation for a man, he is making a transaction of infinite value.
I agree

Because by one man all were made transgressors by one Man all can be restored.
I agree

Election is determined by the Father.
I disagree

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NIV 2 Peter 1:10-11
 10.  Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
 11.  and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

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It seemed obvious to Peter (first Pope?) that there was SOMETHING man had to do to be elected fully, otherwise he would NOT have written this!

The Son is willing to save ALL whom the Father gives to the Son.
I agree -- (Especially if the statement was, "The Son is willing to save ALL"

Thus, the nature of the Atonement is such that it is sufficient for all the sins of the whole world, but effective only for the elect.
I agree, if by 'the elect' you mean those who choose Christ willingly.

[RnMomof7]

The correct Chart:>)))

Comparison of Calvinism and Arminianism

Arminianism	Calvinism
Free-Will or Human Ability Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner posses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation.	Total Inability or Total Depravity Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.
Conditional Election God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.	Unconditional Election God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
Universal Redemption or General Atonement Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.	Particular Redemption or Limited Atonement Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.
The Holy Spirit Can Be Effectually Resisted The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) proceeds and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.	The Efficacious Call of the Spirit or Irresistible Grace In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.
Falling from Grace Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ - that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.	Perseverance of the Saints All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.

• According to Arminianism:

  Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) - man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, "choose" to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be recipients of the gift of salvation.

• According to Calvinism:

  Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

The following material, taken from Romans: An Interpretive Outline, by David N. Steele and Curtis Thomas, Baptist ministers in Little Rock, Arkansas, contrasts the Five Points of Calvinism with the Five Points of Arminianism in the clearest and most concise form found by Mr. Loraine Boettner. It is also included as an Appendix in The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, by Mr. Boettner. Each of these books is published by the Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., Phillipsburg, N.J.

[Elsie]

Jesus has paid for all the sins of a person who will burn forever in the Lake of Fire and make the Propitiation of Christ to have been done in vain.

This is TRUE!

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NIV Galatians 5:2
 2.  Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

 

NIV 2 Corinthians 6:1
 1.  As God's fellow workers we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain.

 

NIV Galatians 2:2
 2.  I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain.

 

NIV Hebrews 7:27
 27.  Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

 

NIV Hebrews 10:10
 10.  And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

NIV 1 John 2:2
 2.  He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for  the sins of the whole world.

 

 

NIV Galatians 5:15
 15.  If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

 

NIV Galatians 5:26
 26.  Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

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I'm sorry if you wish assume that just because some folks choose their own path, that the freeway was built too wide.

[RnMomof7]

Opppps I missed you on the #118 flag...interesting for discussion

See Ya at the BIG dance Elsie:>))