Can the Bishops Heal the American Church?

Crisis: Politics, Culture & the Church | June 2002 | George Sim Johnston

[Zon]

ROTFLMAO!!!!

I'm laughing with you. And I must say that it's probably not nice, even though laughter is mostly uncontrollable (especially when home alone and reading FR forum posts), to laugh at what amounts to another person's delusions.

[american colleen]

No, it is not possible Holy Mother Church/ The Pope could promulgate a Liturgy of Mass opposed or contrary to God's law. I myself mean that I agreed with Bellermine in that "obedience is a matter of Justice. It is sinful to obey an unjust command (unjust in this case being contrary to God's Law). This is also a matter of faith." - I didn't take it (my mistake possibly) that Bellermine was speaking of the so called "Novus Ordo".

[zbogwan2]

In addressing 3 corrupt Italian Cardinals, Catherine of Siena also said: "You are flowers who shed no perfume, but a stench which makes the whole world reek."

My God we could sure use her here right now. Seems like nobody has the fortitude to really address this problem right now in the Church?

[Catholicguy]

As the character in Monty Python's "The Holy Grail" said "pull the other one." That response was an attempt to defend the heretical and evil idea that the Catholic Church via Pope Paul VI had promulgated a Protestant worship service and not a new Liturgy of the Mass. Do you want to defend that, Bellarmine?

The question stands...

[Land of the Irish]

It is the Mass available to virtualy ALL the Catholics on this Planet.

That's a false statement. The Novus Ordo Mass has become so altered and distorted, thanks to extreme interpretations and liberties taken by priests and bishops, that it varies greatly from parish to parish within the same diocese. I know of many Catholics who search out different churches to find a more "respectful" Novus Ordo Mass than that which is geographically closest to them.

Examples: Some congregations stand, some sit and some kneel during the Eucharistic Prayers, some chuches have the tabernacle front and center on the altar,(if there even is an altar remaining), others have it hidden in a "day chapel", out of view.

Your captioned statement was true in the 1950's, when the only difference in the Mass was what local language the sermon was spoken in. It's not true anymore.

[Bellarmine]

The question stands...

Why are you asking me that question? Are you confused? I have never said that Pope Paul VI promulgated a mass contrary to the faith. I don't appreciate your insinuation that I have...

Charity is the highest of virtues...

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

But in our faith, priests and bishops are human and can be lousy leaders, so you should take it from that perspective. We freely admit to having had lousy leaders of our own. Some of them were probably very holy men in their personal lives, but they still turned out to be lousy leaders. Since we don't have the infallibility thing, it's ok for us to say this. It seems like you are more limited in thinking or saying these kinds of things.

You're ignorant of "the infallibility thing". Lurk on some Roman Catholic threads and you'll see plenty of criticism of priests, bishops and yes, even the Pope.

[Catholicguy]

And I guess it is "Catholic" to think the Pope COULD promulgate a Liturgy of the Mass that is contrary to the Faith. Bellarmine, if you think that, you ain't Catholic

Notice, I didn't say that you were not Catholic. I said IF YOU THINK THAT, you aren't Catholic. Big difference.

Yes, I do know a modicum of history and I have seen that particular quote of Bellarmine's used incessantly by both schismatics and sedevacantists.

I also know that Bellarmine would rhetorically bitch-slap anyone who appropriated his thoughts to defend either schism or sedevacantism.

If you have ever seen the normative Mass celebrated on EWTN, I doubt you would think it was "radically changed." I used to drive 90 miles, one way, to St. Robert Bellarmine in Miami to attend the Indult Mass. I also like the 1962 Roman Missal but hee Mass of Pope Paul VI is supposed to be the normative Mass for every single Catholic. A special motu proprio was issued for those with an attachment to the 1962 Roman Missal and it is a mistake to think that will be the Liturgy one hundred years from now.

Liturgies change but the Mass remains. The Roman Canon itself was changed over the years. Prior to Pope Siricius, Mass was in Greek. Ought the Catholics of 400 a.d. to have started rebelling and establish a specific order in opposition to Rome - the Society of Pope Hyacinth - to celebrate the "mass of all times" the Greek Mass?

[MarMema]

- to celebrate the "mass of all times" the Greek Mass?

Hey, it sounds good to me. But then to us "change" is a bad word.

[MarMema]

I'm laughing with you. And I must say that it's probably not nice, even though laughter is mostly uncontrollable (especially when home alone and reading FR forum posts), to laugh at what amounts to another person's delusions.

It is delightful to find something here which makes you laugh aloud. I am glad you did.

[Bellarmine]

Regarding St. Bellarmine, I hope you won't accuse anyone who proposes that resisting an unlawful order by the pontiff can sometimes be justified of being an inane apostate anymore.

I don't think your statement that the canon has changed over time is specific enough. The Roman Canon was fixed at the time of Gregory the Great. It remained unchanged until Pope John XXIII inserted St. Joseph's name into the Canon, causing a great uproar. Of course now, the canon no longer exists. You can't have multiple canons, it denies the meaning of the word.

I have seen the Mass on EWTN, and I must say that I disagree with you. I do see it as a radical change. Aside from the smells and bells, and the Latin, it is no different from the most outlandish charismatic mass. I have attended very reverent Novus Ordo masses, even in Latin, and they depress me just as much as the worst Novus Ordo masses. As to what the mass will look like in 100 years, who knows?

[NetValue]

"The crisis is about active homosexuals in the priesthood.....the cases in question involve not pedophilia but the sexual abuse of teenage boys.....the media prefer not to treat homosexual behavior as the issue. Still, it is issue, and if the hierarchy does not root it out.....then the devastation is going to continue."

Let me not mince words. A priest occupies a position of trust to be true to moral behavior and a Christ-like model for all to follow. A homosexual priest using his position to carry out his base desires upon an innocent adolescent and to then be protected by his superiors is the lowest evil.

I believe the proper penalty for these corruptors of youths is not removal from the priesthood but life in prison. Were a homosexual priest to molest any member of my family and be set free or protected because it's a first offense, neither he nor his superiors would ever be seen again. Guaranteed!

[Siobhan]

I know quite a few people who think highly of his work and the way he has led his archdiocese. But for a person who likes spicy food, who likes spicy food, he is a bit like a bowl of porridge, if you know what I mean...

[Catholicguy]

Regarding St. Bellarmine, I hope you won't accuse anyone who proposes that resisting an unlawful order by the pontiff can sometimes be justified of being an inane apostate anymore.

You appear to have a difficult time following my points. This has happened on this thread before. My comments, AGAIN, were directed specifically to the question as to whether a Pope can promulgate an invalid Mass

I don't think your statement that the canon has changed over time is specific enough. The Roman Canon was fixed at the time of Gregory the Great. It remained unchanged until Pope John XXIII inserted St. Joseph's name into the Canon, causing a great uproar. Of course now, the canon no longer exists. You can't have multiple canons, it denies the meaning of the word.

I will have to go and look it up but, yes, the Roman Canon has been changed frequently throughout history. Jungmann speaks of "thousands of changes" in the Liturgy but I don't have his book before me.

Of course you can have multiple canons - we have them now, and we have had them previously throughout the history of the Church.

I have seen the Mass on EWTN, and I must say that I disagree with you. I do see it as a radical change. Aside from the smells and bells, and the Latin, it is no different from the most outlandish charismatic mass. I have attended very reverent Novus Ordo masses, even in Latin, and they depress me just as much as the worst Novus Ordo masses. As to what the mass will look like in 100 years, who knows?

If a reverent Mass "depresses" you, then I suggest the problem isn't Liturgical

[Land of the Irish]

Why did you once use "to drive 90 miles, one way, to St. Robert Bellarmine in Miami to attend the Indult Mass", if you consider the Novus Ordo Mass an equal replacement? A Novus Ordo Mass to be mandated worldwide, except for the very few, lucky parishoners whose bishops allow an Indult Mass, often to be offered under such strange sanctions as "every third Sunday".

I, personally, find even a "very reverent Novus Ordo mass", although licit and valid, inferior to the Tridentine Mass. I wish the cardinals, bishops and priests obeyed the Pope's "Eccelsia Dei" and made the Tridentine Mass more available to all those that yearn for it.

[Catholicguy]

Frankly, it is because I had one foot in schism. I used to subscribe to "The Remnant," and "Catholic Family News" and "Catholic Counter-Reformation in the XXTH Century" and I read "Iota Unum" the History of Vatican Two by Atila Gueameres (sp)and I read the Davies Trilogy of the Council and ad infinitum.

Almost all my reading was from sources opposed to the Mass of Paul VI, the Second Vatican Council. It was only when I began to read other sources that I realised the poor quality of the histories I had been reading, the errors I had been imbibing, and the schism I was courting.

Since that time, I have reread Vatican Two, Jungmann's Roman Rite History and many other orthodox works. I came to realise I had been lied to in tendentious works meant to supplant Divinely-Constituted authority with private judgement, special pleading, emergency situations etc etc.

I now go to a reverent normative Mass celebrated by a convert from So. Baptism; and, yes, I think Paul's Liturgy is every bit as good as the 1962 Roman Missal.

I do think the Pope ought to be obeyed in ALL things; including a wide and generous application of Ecclesia Dei and I think folks ought to be able to worship in peace in union with the local Bishop and the Pope

[Catholicguy]

That's a false statement. The Novus Ordo Mass has become so altered and distorted, thanks to extreme interpretations and liberties taken by priests and bishops, that it varies greatly from parish to parish within the same diocese. I know of many Catholics who search out different churches to find a more "respectful" Novus Ordo Mass than that which is geographically closest to them.

Look, I am one who spends an inordinate amount of time dealing with Chancellors in various Dioceses concerning Liturgical anomie I have witnessed. I am not defending Liturgical anomie. I was just trying to make the point that the Mass of Paul VI is what the vast majority have available to them.

The Mass is still the Mass however irreverently it is celebrated. The Pope has done what he can to eliminate the abuses - but our Bishops won't comply and we allow our Bishops to get away with it.

We have got to STOP expecting others to fight our fights. We can nip this anomie in the bud with collective action and witholding our tithes. Make it public. Picket. Call the Media; you don't think they wouldn't LOVE photos of Catholics picketing their Chancery?

The Pope has apologised to us in an Encyclical for the abuses in the Liturgy we have sufferred. He has done what he can and now we must act

[Theresa]

One [seminarian] had a girlfriend who regularly visited his bed with the tacit approval of his superiors.

This is just unreal. This one's not about the PCness of tolerating homosexuals. They are tolerating plain ole fornication without even trying to put up a veneer of any kind. I can't get over it. How can this young man be considered a serious candidate for the priesthood at ALL? What is the rationale for letting this occur? I think these guys, the practicing gays and openly fornicating heteros see the whole vocation of the priesthood as nothing but a glorifed social worker.

[Catholicguy]

The Pope has apologised to us in an Encyclical for the abuses in the Liturgy we have sufferred. He has done what he can and now we must act

Dominicae Cenae, Feb 24, 1980 "As I bring these considerations to an end, I would like to ask forgiveness - in my own name and in the name of all of you for everything which, for whatever reason, through whatever human weakness, and at times partial erroneous application of the directives of the Second Vatican Council, mayhave caused scandal concerning the interpretation of the doctrine and the veneration due this great Sacrament."

We can't always demand others act when we won't

[Salvation]

He is discerning going elsewhere!

In Seminaries, New Ways for a New Generation