Apologetics, The Papacy, And Eastern Orthodoxy

Homiletic and Pastoral Review ^ | James Likoudis

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Do you write for The Onion??

[Woodkirk]

Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History, p 137 and p 143
Hasting's Dictionary of the Apostolic Church , Vol 2, pp514 -566
Dictionary of Christian Biography, Vol 4, p 682
The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge
Anna Jameson: Sacred and Legendary Art
The Catholic Encyclopedia
The Bible -- Book of Acts

-- to name a few. Any encyclopedia or book on magic,
the occult, gnosticism usually always includes him.

[don-o]

Well that clears everything up.

Thanks for sharing.

[livius]

Ignoring the bizarre ravings of some poster known as Matchett-PI, I'll tell you what I know:

To change to the Byzantine rite, you have to be someone who is either (a) married to someone in that rite or (b) has, for one reason or another, attended a Byzantine rite church for a long time. If you change rites, this means that you can baptize your children in it, get married in it, etc. - in other words, receive all Sacraments in a Byzantine rite church. This, of course, in addition to Communion, which any Catholic may receive in any church in union with Rome.

You have to ask your Byzantine rite priest or bishop to write a letter to Rome indicating your wish to do this. If granted, it will go on your baptismal certificate or other Latin rite parish records.

I don't think you can switch back and forth, and you really don't have to. The only reason for "officially" changing is if you expect to have children (and you want them baptized in that rite) or expect to get married and want the beautiful Eastern rite marriage ceremony.

You can go to a Byzantine rite church even if you're Latin rite (on paper). And you can go to a Latin rite church even if you're Byzantine rite, which is what Byzantine rite people who live in an area where there are no Eastern rite churches have to do. (It took me a long time to find a tolerable one.)

Hope this clarifies it!

[don-o]

They fail to acknowledge, however, the illogicality of rejecting the communion of the one Bishop, who is the heir of the one Apostle chosen by Christ to be the Rock-foundation, Holder of the Keys of the Kingdom, Confirmer of the brethren, and Chief Pastor of the entire flock

Logic as nothing to do with it. Holy Tradition, however does, and the honorifics mentioned were and are unknown to the one holy catholic and apostolic church.

First among equals was the only title that was allowed to the bishop of Rome, for a time. When the capital of the Empire moved to Constantinople, that title went to her bishop, I believe.

If he is serious, and not on a power trip, JP2 could show his good intention by repenting publicly of kissing a Koran.

[livius]

Actually, I thought JPII's embrace of the Patriarch on the Patriarch's "ecology cruise" was quite charming. And I thought the Liturgy in Ravenna was wonderful!

I'm really not being sarcastic. There are no theological problems separating Constantinople and Rome. Most of the "theological problems" turn out to be mere problems of translation or emphasis. And even the mutual excommunications were revoked.

The genuine problems are practical. The Orthodox have got to be willing to work, not only with Rome, but with each other (since Orthodox churches seem to hate each other even more than they hate Rome). And Rome has got to be willing to give Orthodox churches a certain practical independence - although at the same time, demanding of them an administrative cohesion that they don't have (except for the OCA) and a universalist vision that many of them are sadly lacking in a really, really big way.

[Siobhan]

One of my sons and his family are Byzantine-rite now. I was told he underwent a 'conversion of rites' and that it was irrevocable. Since they were in a Latin-rite Archdiocese owned by the lavendar mafia, they found a wonderful home in a Byzantine-rite Church where their children were baptised and chrismated. They were transferred for a while to another part of the country where there was no Byzantine-rite parish but they lived near a Maronite Catholic Church were they were welcomed warmly. Then they were transferred back and returned to their beloved Byzantine parish.

The Byzantine-rite parishes along with the other Eastern-rites are simply awesome. I know there are problems to be reported, but everything I have experienced tells me that they are keeping the Catholic Church alive in some places where the Latin-rite has already died (but no one has buried the corpse yet.)

[saradippity]

You state there are only two religions;"in one God is sovereign and the other man is sovereign".I agree.

But,unlike you,I believe that the fullness of Truth is found in the Catholic Church that Christ established on earth and entrusted to Peter and the Apostles,in perpetuity.Most Catholics on Free Republic also believe that. Therefore you should take your thoughts and comments and enlighten catholics who are much more like you in their thinking,in that they too believe they can read the Bible and find "their truth".

They are able to read and translate and interpret the scriptures very much like their political idol,Bill Clinton.Remember how he used to read scriptures and find no prohibitions against abortion or homosexuality?And as I recall,his wife,who was of a different denomination was able to "do" scripture in like manner.

Anyway,I think a lively discussion could ensue as you debated the truth as they find it and the truth as you find it and the truth as your various icons find it and perhaps you can illuminate each others minds with your "takes" on truth.

Most of us Catholics on FR are only interested in figuring out how to help the Church,get the message of Christ to all using Scripture,Tradition and the Pope and his Magisterium.Given the number of catholics who have chosen to echo Lucifer and Adam and Eve in their "non servium" and to determine good and evil as they see it,it is a daunting task and you and other non-Catholics could help us immensely.

For starters you should go too the websites of "America",the Jesuit magazine,"Commonweal",the Amchurch magazine,"St. Anthony's Messenger","National Catholic Reporter",the vehicle of dissenters and prophets,"Call To Action",a group of people who want to change the Church,"We Are Church","Wymyn Church","Dignity" and a plethora of other dissenting views.I think you might really find lively debate over there.

Here you just impede the progress of the many who know that God is sovereign and want everyone to know and understand that.We look at this "scandal",as a gift from a merciful God,Who once again affords man an oppurtunity to know,love and serve Him by shaking our cage mightily.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[don-o]

I'm really not being sarcastic. There are no theological problems separating Constantinople and Rome. Most of the "theological problems" turn out to be mere problems of translation or emphasis. And even the mutual excommunications were revoked.

To understand the true nature of the divide, you must understand that the EP is not the Eastern pope. Orthodoxy is very clear, in that the faithful are to uphold the purity of the faith.

Maybe that is why we seem to be fragmented. We separate from apostate bishops, as the Councils tell us to do.

Some of the separations are from human sinfulness; others are required for fidelity to the Truth, such as the Russian Church Outside of Russia, off the Red revolution.

[Stavka2]

I think the children of ethnic Orthodox often see the churches as too ethnic, and become Protestants, if anything.

BS, pure and total. As for reunification, sure, any time, as soon as the Bishop of Rome becomes the Bishop of Rome and not some uber dictator of all Christiandom as was created in the Schism...may I remind you, it is present day Catholicism that split the church. As for the churchs some times working in cross currents, well so do the States of the United States but in the end they work towards the country as a whole...it's called a republican form, as opposed to a dictatorial form like the Catholic church, which by the way is out of communion with its own branches. The American church for the most part blows off Rome, while the Latin ones often work directly for communism...some unity.

[Stavka2]

Maybe if the Bishop of Rome had retained only his role as a spirtual father, like the Orthodox Patriachs from who's numbers he originally came, and not tried to make himself a king on earth, there would be much less hatred.

[saradippity]

I meant to include you in my post which follows your post to which I am responding.Also want to congratulate you and your husband on your new family.God bless you both,is there going to be any sibling rivalry?WINK.But I am interested in your childrens'reactions.

The other day I did two long Freeps to you and darn if I hadn't written them on public post. After the second,I just figured I wasn't supposed to send it then,even though I was really upset.

I miss your Dad but do see him with little Michael in tow at the Coronation.

Are you writing something up?Shortly after your Dad died you said you were going to tell us everything about the funeral.God Bless You do so much for us all,thanks.Boy talk about thread spread,or freep creep,or whatever they call it,hope you understand.Sorry.

[Matchett-PI]

"Ignoring the bizarre ravings of some poster known as Matchett-PI, I'll tell you what I know"

Are these some of the "bizarre ravings" to which you're referring?

Jesus warned his disciples against the elite class of "professional interpreters" of Scripture and tradition who loved pretentious titles and positions of influence.

[1 Pet.2:9; cf. Heb. 10:19-25; 12:22-24] show that ALL Christians have some ability to INTERPRET SCRIPTURE and some responsibility to seek God's wisdom in applying it to situations. ALL have access directly to God in order to seek to know his will.

The NT allows for no special class of Christians who have greater access to God than others.

"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light (1 Peter 2:5, 9).

In the Old Testament economy there was a separate class of priests who mediated between man and God.

In the New Testament, however, we know that there is only "ONE mediator" between men and God: “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5).

It is because of His high priesthood that we are all constituted priests of God, with priestly ministries:

Hebrews 10:19-25 Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh .."

You disagree with that?

[Stavka2]

Only slight theological problems like the authority of the church, it's head/heads, pergetory, sale of indulgences, papal infalibility, Nicce Creed, etc, etc...all soooo slight.

[saradippity]

Hatred?Funny,I have never,ever felt or spoken to any Catholic who felt or exhibited anything close to hatred for any Orhodox Church.In fact,I have heard many express a very heartfelt sorrow for the recent strafings and destruction of so many Orthodox Churches in Serbia and Kosovo.

I have actually been quite taken aback by the animose displayed by so many Orthodox on Free Republic.Nonetheless,I am always impressed by the beauty of many Orthodox Catholics' writings on spiritual matters.

[Stavka2]

May I remind you that your own pope said nothing about the destruction of Orthodox churchs and the murder of Orthodox Christians in Kosovo, but expressed great concern for the Islamics to the point of encouraging NATO to attack. He equally did not say anything about the bombings taking place during the Catholic or Orthodox Easter. Nothing new, just another example in a long line of examples.

[rdb3]

Match! HALT!

Proceed no further.

Trespassing on the land of those who see only what they want to see is detrimental to your health.

[Wrigley]

Your posts are only bizarre to those who need more than one mediator. I'm with you. Christ is sufficient.

[Shermy]

Yes, sometimes the attacks on Catholics from Orthodox on FR are more virulent than any others. They say the most appalling things!

True. We need to do better and not allowed ourselves to be angered by the Roman Church's condescension toward us.

I don't mind ecumenical conversations, but the pseudo-imperial talk from some top Catholic heirarchy, IMO, is disturbing and usually condescending. I am disturbed by the attacks here at FR to a degree. But there are other angry conversations. Greek/Turk, anti-all-Islam for example. The worst I've seen lately is a thread about the treatment of dogs I posted!

Thanks for the ping friend.