Apologetics, The Papacy, And Eastern Orthodoxy

Homiletic and Pastoral Review ^ | James Likoudis

[Polycarp]

 

Apologetics, The Papacy, And Eastern Orthodoxy

By James Likoudis

A sizeable religious literature in Apologetics has grown in past decades as the Catholic Church has continued to be attacked by those Protestants (Fundamentalists, evangelicals, and those belonging to minor sects) who remain influenced by the older Protestant polemics of the Reformation period filled with gross misunderstandings of Catholic doctrines. In an age which in large measure has appeared to have abandoned reason, it is desirable that Catholics restore the proper role of reason and to appeal to reason to establish the credibility of Christianity and the claims of the Catholic Church to be the visible embodiment in this world of the Church Christ Himself founded to be the "Pillar and Ground of the truth" (1Tim. 3:15).

In the opinion of this writer, much of the force of Catholic doctrinal debate with Protestants is rendered ineffective unless a major premise is established first - namely that the Church mentioned throughout the pages of the New Testament is a visible entity, a visible society, a visible body which can be clearly and without difficulty identified as the true Church established by the Savior. Most Protestants do not, in fact, hold the "one Church and one Church only" (Vatican II's Decree on Ecumenism, 1) to be a visible body at all but to be invisible in nature- a Church of the elect, or of the predestined, or of the "saved" who are known only to God, or perhaps- according to some modern ecumenists- are made up of all the baptized who possess a sort of vague spiritual unity sufficient to identify them all as members of the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. Consequently, unless the grace of God intervenes to make a Protestant realize that a visible authority (in the form of an authoritative Church) actually exists in this world to teach unerringly and to judge and settle religious disputes, there is no way to avoid the kind of religious anarchy we see manifested among the 28,000 Protestant denominations listed in religious encyclopedias. Protestantism ends in absolute religious subjectivism and in the tragic spread of religious indifferentism and skepticism. The great Catholic Counter-Reformation Apologists were quite perceptive in judging that Protestantism logically led to infidelity or unbelief.

The teaching of the 2^nd Vatican Council with regards to the nature of the Church constitutes the most magnificent Magisterial expression of ecclesiology in the 2,000 years of Catholic Christianity. The central document of Vatican II, its "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church" (Lumen Gentium), set forth Catholic teaching on the nature of the Catholic Church as a visible social body built on the Rock of Peter which was at the same time the mysterious Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. Its "Decree on the Catholic Eastern Churches" noted that "The holy Catholic Church, which IS the Mystical Body of Christ, is made up of the faithful who are organically united in the Holy Spirit by the same faith, the same sacraments and the same government." And "Lumen Gentium" had indeed much to say concerning "the unity of the flock of Christ, in so far as it is assembled under one (visible) head"(L.G. 22) — namely the Roman Pontiff, the Successor of Peter. Concerning that "supreme authority" in the College of Bishops which was established by the historical Christ for His "one and only Church" , Lumen Gentium noted, "The Holy Spirit preserves unfailingly that form of government which was set up by Christ the Lord in His Church." (L.G. 27)

The Primacy of supreme authority and universal jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff in the Church and the authority of the other Bishops who make up the College of Bishops are therefore both essential elements in the divine constitution of the Church, and this has been the verdict of ecclesiastical history during the Church's 2,000 years. The teaching on Catholic Unity found in Vatican I's "First Dogmatic Constitution on the Church of Christ" and Vatican II's "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church" bear ample witness to this verdict.

It is to be emphasized that the position of the Eastern Orthodox churches (whose called- for- Unity with the Catholic Church is one of the highest priorities in Pope John Paul II's pontificate) is quite different than that of most Protestants. They believe that the Church is indeed visible and that their communion is, in fact, the "one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church" noted in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. The Primacy of the Pope as defined by the Councils of Florence, Vatican I and Vatican II is the "rock of contradiction" that now clearly serves as the biggest obstacle to the union of the Churches, though in the Middle Ages, curiously enough, it was the dogmatic issue of the Procession of the Holy Spirit and the use of unleavened bread in the Eucharist which identified for Byzantine dissidents the Pope and those in communion with him as "heretical".

The inability of Eastern Orthodox theologians and hierarchs to understand the proper relationship between Primacy and Collegiality (or Conciliarity) lies at the heart of their doctrinal resistance to the Papacy's Petrine Ministry. As some of them have said- in tune, interestingly enough, with some Protestants- the only Vicar of Christ is the Holy Spirit. In this statement lies the profound error concerning the visible government of the Church that has resulted in what we see among the 16 or so autocephalous (i.e., independent) churches making up the Eastern Orthodox communion - namely, a truncated hierarchy that cannot speak with one voice on doctrinal issues. A Catholic writer some years ago wrote beautifully that "From Christ the Apostles received the Holy Spirit who made them One". Concerning the episcopate in the Church (i.e., the corporate body of Bishops ruling the Church), he noted further :

"The Spirit of Christ present in the episcopal body is the source of its unity. It is He who assists the college in its teaching and prevents it from any substantial error in the matter of faith. He inspires, moves and helps the college in its activity. The one Holy Spirit is holding together the many members of the episcopal body.

The supernatural power of the Spirit is the common possession of the episcopal body, although the head and members do not share it in the same degree. The Successor of Peter posseses it in a way that makes him the principle of unity for the many members. The members possess it in a way that makes them able to act in a corporate manner when the head calls upon them to do so. The Spirit of Christ, says Lumen Gentium 'strengthens the organic structure of the college and its harmony'. The body, of course remains one : one theological subject of this mysterious power, of which the practical or legal manifestation is twofold- either through an act of the head of the college of bishops or through the action of the whole college [as in an Ecumenical Council]." (Fr. Ladislas M. Orsy, S.J., "Collegiality: Its Meaning" in America, May 15, 1965)

Clarifying further the relation between the Pope and the Bishops of the Church, he observed :

"Peter remains the Rock on which the Church is built. On this Rock rests even the college of bishops- not as a foreign body added to it, but as a structure that God has united to the Rock to help carry the weight of the whole edifice of the Universal Church."

And what a weight and burden the Bishop of Rome as the Successor of the Rock-man carries in his Petrine Office as Primate of the Universal Church. This was noted by John of Salisbury in the 12^th century writing in his famous political treatise "Policraticus" of Pope Hadrian IV :

"The cathedra of the Roman Pontiff is a bed of thorns, his mantle, trimmed with the sharpest points all over, is so heavy that it weighs down, bruises, and crushes the strongest shoulders, and the tiara with its crown may well seem bright because it is made of fire."(VI, 24)

Though the Pope no longer wears a tiara, he, as the Chief Bishop of the Church, continues to image his Crucified Master in that Way of the Cross which constitutes the Church's pilgrimage through history. G.K.Chesterton once referred to "the halo of hatred that surrounds the Church of God" in that pilgrimage. In the past centuries of violent Protestant and Eastern Orthodox polemics directed against the Papacy as a, if not the, "Antichrist", we can see, in fact, that "halo of hatred" most glaringly manifested. We may recall the words of that astute 19^th c. Catholic thinker Joseph de Maistre who observed that "the hatred of Rome is the only but universal tie between all the separated Churches." (Du Pape, Book IV, Chapter I)

Though ecumenical dialogue and contacts have greatly softened the polemics of the past regarding the role of the Pope in the Church- and God is to be thanked for that-, serious difficulties remain with regards to both Protestants and Eastern Orthodox coming to a better understanding and appreciation of the role of the Pope in the Church. Moreover, with some Catholics defecting to the Eastern Orthodox communion because of the doctrinal and liturgical disorders of the post-conciliar period, Catholic Apologists can not ignore the renewed intransigence of some Eastern Orthodox towards the "heresy" of the Papacy.

The Eastern Orthodox continue to profess the ancient belief of the "undivided Church" that the Episcopacy continues the apostolic mission of the original Apostolic College. They fail to acknowledge, however, the illogicality of rejecting the communion of the one Bishop, who is the heir of the one Apostle chosen by Christ to be the Rock-foundation, Holder of the Keys of the Kingdom, Confirmer of the brethren, and Chief Pastor of the entire flock (cf. Matt. 16:18ff; Lk. 22:31; Jn. 21:15-17), and thereby given the awesome responsibility to safeguard the visible unity of the one Church Christ had founded for the salvation of all men. As Vatican I and Vatican II have insisted :

"In order that the episcopate itself, however, might be one and undivided, Christ put Peter at the head of the other Apostles, and in him He set up a lasting and visible source and foundation of the unity both of faith and of communion." (Lumen Gentium, 18)

Catholic tradition has always seen clearly that if the Gates of Hell ( heresies, schisms, and persecutions, etc.) are not to prevail against the Church built on the Rock-foundation of Peter, Christ's authoritative Invisible headship of the Church must be reflected in the hierarchical order of the Church itself. It is the Primacy of Christ (1 Coloss.1:18) that is manifested in the Primacy of Peter's Successor in the hierarchy of the Church. It is Christ's headship that is reflected in the Bishop of Rome being constituted the. visible head and indivisible center of unity for all the local churches (East and West) making up the Catholic communion.

A recent polemic that is worth the atttention of Catholic Apologists is that of Mr. Clark Carlton, a former Southern Baptist minister who has converted to Eastern Orthodoxy. In his "The Truth: What Every Roman Catholic Should Know About the Orthodox Church" (Regina Orthodox Press, 1999; 270 pp.), he purports to give a "theological analysis of the differences between Rome and Orthodoxy, not a critique of the reforms of Vatican II". This does not keep him from alleging that "the Roman Catholic Church has become highly protestantized in the wake of Vatican II" and from attempting to dissuade "Evangelical Protestants who are considering converting to the Roman Catholic Church" (pages 8-9). He devotes an entire Chapter to criticize especially Catholic convert Scott Hahn for his "appalling ignorance of history", particularly with regards to the crippling influence of the Byzantine Greek and Russian Emperors who dominated the life of the dissident Greco-Slav churches for centuries. Following the lead of the Russian Orthodox Jean Meyendorff, Clark's attempt to discount a "caesaropapism which did not in fact exist" is not convincing.

Interestingly, Mr. Carlton earned an M.A. in Early Christian Studies from the Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C. His recent book attacking the Catholic Church and the Papacy represents the sorry revival of the worst kind of polemics launched by dissident Byzantines before and after the Reunion Council of Florence (1439). This is evidenced by the author's inclusion of documents expressive of the bitterness and violent invective often hurled against "heretical Rome":

• the 1285 Tome against the "Filioque" of the Council of Blachernae;
• the 1848 Encyclical Reply by the patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem to Pius IX's invitation to them to attend Vatican I;
• the 1993 Letter of Mt. Athos Monks taking to task the Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew I, for his ecumenical overtures to "the Pope, the man-god and idol of Western humanism".

Mr. Carlton will have no part of Eastern Orthodox ecumenical efforts. [To him] Ecumenism is simply another "heresy". In fact, [he states that:]

• "the Orthodox Church considers the Roman Catholic Church to be in heresy" (page 9)...
• The doctrine of the papacy...is heresy", as representing a radical departure from the ecclesiology of the early Church (page 18).
• "The Orthodox [have] rejected the 'Filioque' [i.e., the words "and the Son" added to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed in the Latin Church] because it was heretical" (page 62).
• "It must be recognized as a heresy and formally repudiated" (page 75).
• "Orthodoxy" rejects Roman Catholic doctrines such as: "Papal supremacy and infallibility"; "changing the Creed (the 'Filioque')"; "worrying about going to a non-existent place (purgatory), paying money to stay out of said non-existent place (indulgences)"; and "the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception".

This last doctrine is accused of "turning the Virgin Mary into some sort of super-human" (an immaculately conceived Co-redemptrix).

For Mr. Carlton, "Orthodoxy" also rejects the Catholic doctrine of salvation based upon concepts of satisfaction and merit. "To put it bluntly", he pontificates, Eastern Orthodoxy "knows a different Christ from that of the Roman Catholic Church" (page 187). "We simply do not confess the same faith".

Space does not permit here to deal adequately with the many doctrinal misconceptions, erroneous theological arguments, and distortions of historical fact found in this anti-ecumenical work. Its familiar charges and allegations have often been refuted by Catholic scholars, and are very similar in nature and import to another recent book published by the same Press (Michael Whelton's "Two Paths: Papal Monarchy or Collegiality" ) which is similarly directed against the "heretical" Papacy. Not surprisingly, both of these books clearly evidence the results of schism from the See of Peter, namely, doctrinal variations and contradictions among the Eastern Orthodox and consequent confusion as to what (in the absence of any Ecumenical Council since the 8^th c.) constitutes their "official teaching".

Mr. Carlton says he converted to Eastern Orthodoxy rather than to the Catholic Church because he saw in the former's theology and life " a pure witness" to the religion of the early Church. Yet he is forced to acknowledge with the monks of Mt. Athos an "already disunited body of Orthodoxy"- one racked with the heresy of "phyletism" (a heresy condemned as such in an l872 Council at Constantinople). Phyletism is defined as "the theory that the Church should be organized according to ethnic make-up rather than according to territorial dioceses"- an innovation quite contrary to the ancient canons. The sorry result has been - in the words of the Mt. Athos monks- "ensuing chaos", now strikingly manifest in multiple Orthodox jurisdictions, a number of which are declared "uncanonical" by some and "schismatical" or "heretical" by others. Whereas Carlton insists that each of his "national churches" professes "one and the same Orthodox faith", he fails to see the flagrant contradictions into which he falls. The Church's ecclesiology, he declares, is "not subject to change". Yet he admits that Rome's claims to a primacy of universal jurisdiction is already found in the 5^th century when the orthodox Eastern churches were in full communion with Rome. The 'Filioque", he charges 'ad nauseam' is "heretical", but he admits the doctrine of the Procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and from (or through) the Son was already widespread in the Western Church since the 5^th century (and when the orthodox Eastern churches were in full communion with it). In claiming that the Eastern Orthodox profess "one and the same Orthodox faith", he ignores the brute fact that theologians (both past and present) are found who believe that the 'Filioque' is not heretical; who have expressed belief in the Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God so venerated among them; who believe in a "purification or cleansing of the soul "in the after-life (with its pains and torments)- a teaching practically indistinguishable from our Catholic doctrine of purgatory ; and who believe that Papal supremacy has deep historical roots in the early Church being clearly admitted in the East long before the 11^th century estrangement between Rome and Constantinople.

Fortunately, Mr. Carlton does not speak for all Eastern Orthodox bishops, theologians, and Laity; some will surely find his views quite extremist and strident, and will be embarrassed by his and fellow zealots' denunciation of ecumenism as "heresy". Also, readers of his book may find quite questionable his elevating the 14^th century theologian Gregory Palamas' controversial teaching on the essence and energies of God to the status of dogma (and this without benefit of an Ecumenical Council !). Nor do his views on the nature of the Church find approval with a writer of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.
Reviewing an earlier book by Mr. Carlton ("The Faith : Understanding Orthodox Christianity- An Orthodox Catechism", 1997), Fr.Alexey Young (himself a former Catholic) observed:

"The author says that 'the Orthodox Church has faithfully maintained the apostolic faith once delivered to the saints (Jude 3), neither adding to nor subtracting from it.' A fine statement, but one which is, in this context, at best an optimistic generalization, for some Orthodox jurisdictions have in fact departed significantly from the Faith 'once delivered to the saints', as even a cursory study will reveal."("Orthodox America", 1997)

Mr. Carlton must also be said to live in quite another theological world than that of the late Panteleimon, Metropolitan of Chios, who observed many years ago (in words that have been echoed by other Eastern Orthodox prelates) that:

"Between the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church, it is fanaticism alone, that has emphasized the insignificant differences, differences that were never serious, that existed in former times without bringing on a schism." (Le Monde, January 26,1952)

Then, too, it can be perceived that behind many of the author's erroneous statements lies a residue of centuries of old Protestant prejudices and fanatical animus against "Romanism" and "Mariolatry". A number of Eastern Orthodox theologians he quotes (such as the 19^th c. lay theologian Khomjakov) were undeniably influenced by Protestant negations of Catholic doctrines.

In conclusion, Mr. Carlton has rehashed old doctrinal grievances and complaints against the Catholic Church by Byzantine dissidents who have misunderstood and misinterpreted the Tradition of their own Eastern Fathers on those dogmatic matters where they choose to find themselves at odds with Catholic teaching. Ironically, his book has served to highlight the irreconcilable doctrinal divisions, disputes, and schisms currently found in the 16 or so autocephalous (jurisdictionally independent) churches making up the Eastern Orthodox communion.

Though by the grace of God, the Eastern Orthodox have kept in almost complete measure the Catholic faith as defined in the first seven Ecumenical Councils, they have departed from the fullness of that faith in sadly separating themselves from the communion of the Rock-foundation of the Church, Peter and his successors, the Roman Pontiffs. Readers will recall Cardinal Newman's famous aphorism : "To go deep into history is to cease to be a Protestant". It is also true that for those who seek integral orthodoxy, love the Catholic unity of the Church, and meditate seriously upon the role of the Papacy in the First Millenium, "To go deep into history is to cease to be Eastern Orthodox."

(c) James Likoudis. All Rights Reserved. This article was originally published in "Homiletic and Pastoral Review" issue of January 2001

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[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Do you write for The Onion??

[Woodkirk]

Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History, p 137 and p 143
Hasting's Dictionary of the Apostolic Church , Vol 2, pp514 -566
Dictionary of Christian Biography, Vol 4, p 682
The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge
Anna Jameson: Sacred and Legendary Art
The Catholic Encyclopedia
The Bible -- Book of Acts

-- to name a few. Any encyclopedia or book on magic,
the occult, gnosticism usually always includes him.

[don-o]

Well that clears everything up.

Thanks for sharing.

[livius]

Ignoring the bizarre ravings of some poster known as Matchett-PI, I'll tell you what I know:

To change to the Byzantine rite, you have to be someone who is either (a) married to someone in that rite or (b) has, for one reason or another, attended a Byzantine rite church for a long time. If you change rites, this means that you can baptize your children in it, get married in it, etc. - in other words, receive all Sacraments in a Byzantine rite church. This, of course, in addition to Communion, which any Catholic may receive in any church in union with Rome.

You have to ask your Byzantine rite priest or bishop to write a letter to Rome indicating your wish to do this. If granted, it will go on your baptismal certificate or other Latin rite parish records.

I don't think you can switch back and forth, and you really don't have to. The only reason for "officially" changing is if you expect to have children (and you want them baptized in that rite) or expect to get married and want the beautiful Eastern rite marriage ceremony.

You can go to a Byzantine rite church even if you're Latin rite (on paper). And you can go to a Latin rite church even if you're Byzantine rite, which is what Byzantine rite people who live in an area where there are no Eastern rite churches have to do. (It took me a long time to find a tolerable one.)

Hope this clarifies it!

[don-o]

They fail to acknowledge, however, the illogicality of rejecting the communion of the one Bishop, who is the heir of the one Apostle chosen by Christ to be the Rock-foundation, Holder of the Keys of the Kingdom, Confirmer of the brethren, and Chief Pastor of the entire flock

Logic as nothing to do with it. Holy Tradition, however does, and the honorifics mentioned were and are unknown to the one holy catholic and apostolic church.

First among equals was the only title that was allowed to the bishop of Rome, for a time. When the capital of the Empire moved to Constantinople, that title went to her bishop, I believe.

If he is serious, and not on a power trip, JP2 could show his good intention by repenting publicly of kissing a Koran.

[livius]

Actually, I thought JPII's embrace of the Patriarch on the Patriarch's "ecology cruise" was quite charming. And I thought the Liturgy in Ravenna was wonderful!

I'm really not being sarcastic. There are no theological problems separating Constantinople and Rome. Most of the "theological problems" turn out to be mere problems of translation or emphasis. And even the mutual excommunications were revoked.

The genuine problems are practical. The Orthodox have got to be willing to work, not only with Rome, but with each other (since Orthodox churches seem to hate each other even more than they hate Rome). And Rome has got to be willing to give Orthodox churches a certain practical independence - although at the same time, demanding of them an administrative cohesion that they don't have (except for the OCA) and a universalist vision that many of them are sadly lacking in a really, really big way.

[Siobhan]

One of my sons and his family are Byzantine-rite now. I was told he underwent a 'conversion of rites' and that it was irrevocable. Since they were in a Latin-rite Archdiocese owned by the lavendar mafia, they found a wonderful home in a Byzantine-rite Church where their children were baptised and chrismated. They were transferred for a while to another part of the country where there was no Byzantine-rite parish but they lived near a Maronite Catholic Church were they were welcomed warmly. Then they were transferred back and returned to their beloved Byzantine parish.

The Byzantine-rite parishes along with the other Eastern-rites are simply awesome. I know there are problems to be reported, but everything I have experienced tells me that they are keeping the Catholic Church alive in some places where the Latin-rite has already died (but no one has buried the corpse yet.)

[saradippity]

You state there are only two religions;"in one God is sovereign and the other man is sovereign".I agree.

But,unlike you,I believe that the fullness of Truth is found in the Catholic Church that Christ established on earth and entrusted to Peter and the Apostles,in perpetuity.Most Catholics on Free Republic also believe that. Therefore you should take your thoughts and comments and enlighten catholics who are much more like you in their thinking,in that they too believe they can read the Bible and find "their truth".

They are able to read and translate and interpret the scriptures very much like their political idol,Bill Clinton.Remember how he used to read scriptures and find no prohibitions against abortion or homosexuality?And as I recall,his wife,who was of a different denomination was able to "do" scripture in like manner.

Anyway,I think a lively discussion could ensue as you debated the truth as they find it and the truth as you find it and the truth as your various icons find it and perhaps you can illuminate each others minds with your "takes" on truth.

Most of us Catholics on FR are only interested in figuring out how to help the Church,get the message of Christ to all using Scripture,Tradition and the Pope and his Magisterium.Given the number of catholics who have chosen to echo Lucifer and Adam and Eve in their "non servium" and to determine good and evil as they see it,it is a daunting task and you and other non-Catholics could help us immensely.

For starters you should go too the websites of "America",the Jesuit magazine,"Commonweal",the Amchurch magazine,"St. Anthony's Messenger","National Catholic Reporter",the vehicle of dissenters and prophets,"Call To Action",a group of people who want to change the Church,"We Are Church","Wymyn Church","Dignity" and a plethora of other dissenting views.I think you might really find lively debate over there.

Here you just impede the progress of the many who know that God is sovereign and want everyone to know and understand that.We look at this "scandal",as a gift from a merciful God,Who once again affords man an oppurtunity to know,love and serve Him by shaking our cage mightily.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[don-o]

I'm really not being sarcastic. There are no theological problems separating Constantinople and Rome. Most of the "theological problems" turn out to be mere problems of translation or emphasis. And even the mutual excommunications were revoked.

To understand the true nature of the divide, you must understand that the EP is not the Eastern pope. Orthodoxy is very clear, in that the faithful are to uphold the purity of the faith.

Maybe that is why we seem to be fragmented. We separate from apostate bishops, as the Councils tell us to do.

Some of the separations are from human sinfulness; others are required for fidelity to the Truth, such as the Russian Church Outside of Russia, off the Red revolution.

[Stavka2]

I think the children of ethnic Orthodox often see the churches as too ethnic, and become Protestants, if anything.

BS, pure and total. As for reunification, sure, any time, as soon as the Bishop of Rome becomes the Bishop of Rome and not some uber dictator of all Christiandom as was created in the Schism...may I remind you, it is present day Catholicism that split the church. As for the churchs some times working in cross currents, well so do the States of the United States but in the end they work towards the country as a whole...it's called a republican form, as opposed to a dictatorial form like the Catholic church, which by the way is out of communion with its own branches. The American church for the most part blows off Rome, while the Latin ones often work directly for communism...some unity.

[Stavka2]

Maybe if the Bishop of Rome had retained only his role as a spirtual father, like the Orthodox Patriachs from who's numbers he originally came, and not tried to make himself a king on earth, there would be much less hatred.

[saradippity]

I meant to include you in my post which follows your post to which I am responding.Also want to congratulate you and your husband on your new family.God bless you both,is there going to be any sibling rivalry?WINK.But I am interested in your childrens'reactions.

The other day I did two long Freeps to you and darn if I hadn't written them on public post. After the second,I just figured I wasn't supposed to send it then,even though I was really upset.

I miss your Dad but do see him with little Michael in tow at the Coronation.

Are you writing something up?Shortly after your Dad died you said you were going to tell us everything about the funeral.God Bless You do so much for us all,thanks.Boy talk about thread spread,or freep creep,or whatever they call it,hope you understand.Sorry.

[Matchett-PI]

"Ignoring the bizarre ravings of some poster known as Matchett-PI, I'll tell you what I know"

Are these some of the "bizarre ravings" to which you're referring?

Jesus warned his disciples against the elite class of "professional interpreters" of Scripture and tradition who loved pretentious titles and positions of influence.

[1 Pet.2:9; cf. Heb. 10:19-25; 12:22-24] show that ALL Christians have some ability to INTERPRET SCRIPTURE and some responsibility to seek God's wisdom in applying it to situations. ALL have access directly to God in order to seek to know his will.

The NT allows for no special class of Christians who have greater access to God than others.

"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light (1 Peter 2:5, 9).

In the Old Testament economy there was a separate class of priests who mediated between man and God.

In the New Testament, however, we know that there is only "ONE mediator" between men and God: “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5).

It is because of His high priesthood that we are all constituted priests of God, with priestly ministries:

Hebrews 10:19-25 Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh .."

You disagree with that?

[Stavka2]

Only slight theological problems like the authority of the church, it's head/heads, pergetory, sale of indulgences, papal infalibility, Nicce Creed, etc, etc...all soooo slight.

[saradippity]

Hatred?Funny,I have never,ever felt or spoken to any Catholic who felt or exhibited anything close to hatred for any Orhodox Church.In fact,I have heard many express a very heartfelt sorrow for the recent strafings and destruction of so many Orthodox Churches in Serbia and Kosovo.

I have actually been quite taken aback by the animose displayed by so many Orthodox on Free Republic.Nonetheless,I am always impressed by the beauty of many Orthodox Catholics' writings on spiritual matters.

[Stavka2]

May I remind you that your own pope said nothing about the destruction of Orthodox churchs and the murder of Orthodox Christians in Kosovo, but expressed great concern for the Islamics to the point of encouraging NATO to attack. He equally did not say anything about the bombings taking place during the Catholic or Orthodox Easter. Nothing new, just another example in a long line of examples.

[rdb3]

Match! HALT!

Proceed no further.

Trespassing on the land of those who see only what they want to see is detrimental to your health.

[Wrigley]

Your posts are only bizarre to those who need more than one mediator. I'm with you. Christ is sufficient.

[Shermy]

Yes, sometimes the attacks on Catholics from Orthodox on FR are more virulent than any others. They say the most appalling things!

True. We need to do better and not allowed ourselves to be angered by the Roman Church's condescension toward us.

I don't mind ecumenical conversations, but the pseudo-imperial talk from some top Catholic heirarchy, IMO, is disturbing and usually condescending. I am disturbed by the attacks here at FR to a degree. But there are other angry conversations. Greek/Turk, anti-all-Islam for example. The worst I've seen lately is a thread about the treatment of dogs I posted!

Thanks for the ping friend.