Catholic Caucus: The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass

New Oxford Review ^ | J+M+J June A.D. 2002 | Mario Derksen

[ELS]

Thank you! Dominus vobiscum!

[constitutiongirl]

What I've always found interesting is the early Christians(early A.D. 100's) believed that Christ is present in the Eucharist. I'll take the writings of someone who actually learned under the Apostle John to the 'interpretations' of men over a thousand years later any day of the week.

[constitutiongirl]

I've remarked elsewhere that non-Catholics who continually debate with the same group of Catholics are themselves violating Scripture. There are only three ways that they can view us: heretics, unbelievers, or misguided Christians. By continually dialoging witht the same Catholics (depending on their view of us), they are (1.) violating the admonition to not socialize with heretics(if we are heretics), (2.) continually casting their pearls before swine (if we're unbelievers) or (3.) violating Paul's admonition about arguments amongst believers (if we're Christians).

Since the Holy Spirit doesn't lead one to sin and since they don't believe humans have free will, I wonder who is prompting them to continuously violate the Word of God.

[Gophack]

It is completely your right to disagree. The Holy Eucharist is a very difficult concept to grasp. Either you believe that Jesus has the power to turn ordinary bread and wine into his body, blood, soul and divinity; or you don't. But don't say that Catholics think that the cross is of no consequence, that just isn't true. Jesus' death and resurrection save and define us. The Mass focuses on Jesus' sacrifice for us, and we share in His sacrifice. He fills us, and gives us life.

His Holiness, John Paul II is writing an encyclical on the Eucharist that I am very interested in reading. Our belief in the Eucharist is, in my opinion, the primary separation between Catholics and Protestants.

I hope when it is complete, that you will sit down and read it. I don't expect to change your mind or convert you, but maybe you'll understand a little more our deep faith in our Lord and Savior.

[narses]

Well of course. That's why the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church exists. The Apostles who were students and apointees of Our Lord taught the doctrine of the Real Presence as they were taught. That's why the Church included those stories in the Gospel. Recall, of course, that the Bible didn't exist in the First Century after the Passion. It was the One, Holy, Apostolic Catholic Church that defined the Bible.

[kinsman redeemer]

What deluded people.

I agree.

[Fithal the Wise]

In a February 2001 interview in Kirchliche Umschau, Father May said: "The nomination of Kasper and Lehmann [to the College of Cardinals] is a genuine scandal, that is to say, an occasion of sin . . . "

Both Kasper and Lehmann were made Cardinals by Pope John Paul II on February 21, 2001.

Please someone explain how Pope John Paul II, a good man, could make Cardinals of these two. Hard to believe he did not know what they were about.

[narses]

He knew, Cardinal Ratzinger told him.

[Dajjal]

BTTT

[kinsman redeemer]

You used Jn 6:54ff earlier in this thread to support you notion of transsubstantiation.

Answer this: What part of Jesus' actual body did the bread turn into when he "consecrated" it? Where did that part go when He shared and ate it?

Why don't you people look at the totality of God's Word instead of hanging doctrine on a single verse in this passage? Don't you see the context of the passage? Verses 29 and 48 summarize my point. Jesus gives his apostles the symbolism of manna in the desert. The context is: bread that gives life! The bread is symbolic of the sacrifice that would come the next day and pay once and for all - the debt that was ours.

I am continually amazed at the utter ignorance of adherants to the RC cult. Works on top of Grace. Holiness attributed to sinful men. Re-enactments of a once, for all, sacrifice in order to be re-forgiven in the tradition of the Law. Satan has a strong grip on you and your church.

.

The worst nightmare for a smoker is an ex-smoker. Listen the voice of an ex-Catholic: God's Plan does not require your contortions and complications. Read your Bibles instead of of your "Pontifical Councils."

If it weren't a matter of your eternal security, it would almost be laughable.

[narses]

Listen the voice of an ex-Catholic: God's Plan does not require your contortions and complications. Read your Bibles instead of of your "Pontifical Councils."

Your voice, or God's voice? God spoke to the Apostles IN PERSON. He instructed them and their successors still instruct us BASED on the Bible. A Bible whose books were codified and selected by those self same apostolic successors. What direct revelation from God gives you the authority to speak for Him? Finally, if all that you claim is required is a Baptism and a personal relationship with God, how (in your mind) do the "contortions and complications" harm you or anyone else? Certainly every Catholic I know has been correctly baptized and has a personal relationship with God.

[narses]

Listen the voice of an ex-Catholic: God's Plan does not require your contortions and complications. Read your Bibles instead of of your "Pontifical Councils."

Your voice, or God's voice? God spoke to the Apostles IN PERSON. He instructed them and their successors still instruct us BASED on the Bible. A Bible whose books were codified and selected by those self same apostolic successors. What direct revelation from God gives you the authority to speak for Him? Finally, if all that you claim is required is a Baptism and a personal relationship with God, how (in your mind) do the "contortions and complications" harm you or anyone else? Certainly every Catholic I know has been correctly baptized and has a personal relationship with God.

[kinsman redeemer]

He instructed them and their successors still instruct us BASED on the Bible.

There's so much I could say, but let me ask you this: Are these the same people who say that one case of molesting a child is not enough of an offense to warrant removal from service?

Is that priest "blameless, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, not violent" as God prescribes in 1 Tim 3?

The fact is: your earthly instructors are inconsistent and only keeping you ignorant of God's Word. That is how Satan works.

"Correctly baptized" ?! I LOL! Show me ONE example from scripture of an infant baptism.

You didn't answer my first question and you can't give an adequate response to these.

"Direct revelation" ?? I am citing chapter and verse. I am not pretending to speak from my own wisdom! (I Cor 2)

PLEASE - Don't make a knee-jerk response. Seek Him in prayer.

[narses]

You speak of "knee jerk responses" and yet that is what you do. For example, you say "Show me ONE example from scripture of an infant baptism", and I say, here are three!

"She was baptized and her household" (Acts 16:15); "Himself was baptized, and all his house immediately" (Acts 16:33); "I baptized the household of Stephanus" (I Corinthians 1:16).

Clearly infants were included.

The tradition of Christian antiquity as to the necessity of infant baptism is clear from the very beginning. Origen (in cap. vi, Ep. ad Rom.) declares: "The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving baptism also to infants". St. Augustine (Serm. xi, De Verb Apost.) says of infant baptism: "This the Church always had, always held; this she received from the faith of our ancestors; this she perseveringly guards even to the end." St. Cyprian (Ep. ad Fidum) writes: "From baptism and from grace . . . must not be kept the infant who, because recently born, has committed no sin, except, inasmuch as it was born carnally from Adam, it has contracted the contagion of the ancient death in its first nativity; and it comes to receive the remission of sins more easily on this very account that not its own, but another's sins are forgiven it." St. Cyprian's letter to Fidus declares that the Council of Carthage in 253 reprobated the opinion that the baptism of infants should be delayed until the eighth day after birth. The Council of Milevis in 416 anathematizes whosoever says that infants lately born are not to be baptized. The Council of Trent solemnly defines the doctrine of infant baptism (Sess. VII, can. xiii). It also condemns (can. xiv) the opinion of Erasmus that those who had been baptized in infancy, should be left free to ratify or reject the baptismal promises after they had become adult. Theologians also call attention to the fact that as God sincerely wishes all men to be saved, He does not exclude infants, for whom baptism of either water or blood is the only means possible. The doctrines also of the universality of original sin and of the all-comprehending atonement of Christ are stated so plainly and absolutely in Scripture as to leave no solid reason for denying that infants are included as well as adults.

As for your screed about the sins of Catholic priests, what sect has shepherds without flaw? What creed do you assert in opposition to the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed? Can you state you beliefs?

[narses]

PS You failed to answer my questions while claiming I am being led by Satan. You also, falsely, assumed that I meant only infant baptism. Many are baptized (as I was) as adult converts. What then does your (unnamed) creed say? How do the "contortions" of Mass and Confession fit into your claim of Satanism?

[kinsman redeemer]

read back over the posts.

[kinsman redeemer]

Frankly the USCCB is itself so often disobedient, so filled with dissenters FROM dogma and revealed truth that to accept their positions blindly is nothing short of foolishness.

He instructed them and their successors still instruct us BASED on the Bible.

[narses]

Your point? St. Athanasious is reputed to have said "the floors of Hell are paved with the skulls of Bishops". That apostate and even satanic men have infiltrated Our Lord's Church is neither new nor news. They will be judged by Him who cannot be either deceived nor bribed, as will we all. You have yet to answer my questions. What creed do you espouse? What sect do you adhere to?

[narses]

Good grief, what a thread. What a perfect place for him.