Replies

I was thinking about this last night, but my mind was starting to fog. There would be two ways that it might work: (1) abdicate justification, or (2) be stripped of justification by God.

Those are the 2 possibilities I can think of J.

This is a tough issue for me because my tendency would be to fall back on my baptist upbringing and just say that it's impossible to lose one's salvation and that anyone who doesn't live it never really had it.

The difficulty there is all the scripture that speaks of conditional continuation.

Those conditional verses don't say so, but the assumption would have to be that God strips them of or permits to the abdicate their justification. To nail that down one would need a verse that specifically deals with that issue. I simply cannot think of one.

The "P", however, is not the issue with calvinism. The "P" does not cause the "U" to stand or fall. The "I", though, does. The "U" cannot stand if the "I" falls.

X: Those are the 2 possibilities I can think of J. (1) abdicate justification, or (2) be stripped of justification by God.

drj: Both of those possibilities make the statement of Romans 8 a lie and render it "some he justified..." There is shrinkage with either of your possibilities.

X: This is a tough issue for me because my tendency would be to fall back on my baptist upbringing and just say that it's impossible to lose one's salvation and that anyone who doesn't live it never really had it.

drj: Don't throw out your heritage on this point, there's a baby in there!

X: The difficulty there is all the scripture that speaks of conditional continuation.

drj: I believe there are responses to these difficulties that preserve the clear teaching of Romans 8, etc.

X: Those conditional verses don't say so, but the assumption would have to be that God strips them of or permits to the abdicate their justification.

drj:They don't say so, because that isn't the case. Your hypothetical solution (either one) causes more problems than solved.

X: To nail that down one would need a verse that specifically deals with that issue. I simply cannot think of one.

drj: Me neither, perhaps because there isn't one.

X: The "P", however, is not the issue with calvinism. The "P" does not cause the "U" to stand or fall.

drj: Not so. The Remonstrants were non commmital on whether the elect could finally fall away. Arminius conditioned election on foreseen faith AND forseen perseverance. Arminius rightly saw that a man who could choose God could unchoose Him.

Therefore, in his system all believers were not necessarily elect. And one could be sure of one's present salvation, but not one's future salvation.

X: The "U" cannot stand if the "I" falls.

drj: Nor can the "P" stand if we can resist remaining in grace. The parallel with resisting entering saving grace is there and unavoidable, Xzins.

Your almost "P" position won't sustain scrutiny. Consistent with your prior statements, it appears that you should set the "P" aside and Romans 8 with it and try to figure out how God can "strip a person of justification" (whereby justification becomes probation not pardon) or man can "abdicate justification" (more plausible yet problematic) and thereby UNREGENERATE himself and translate himself back to the kingdom of darkness. Huge problems attend this option.

SUM: The "P" has received less attention on these threads, it is not less important nor periperal either logically or scripturally.

((Give this some serious reflection ... You may need to recover more of your heritage than you imagined or else abandon assurrance and security all together. "Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine FOR NOW..."))