Geoge Barna's Latest Assesment of the State of Evangelical Christianity

Christianity Today ^ | 7/26/2002 | Tim Stafford

[don-o]

I have one more observation the church grows the most under persecution.....it has the most life under ground...

Persecution?

Give me a break! There ain't no persecution going on for the vast majority of the Christians in America.

You know why? Because, we are no threat. We are quiet little rabbits, who may write letters, or sign petitions. But, Caesar can handle that. No sweat.

[drstevej]

Agreed...

[don-o]

What is needed is for the Church to get on our knees and pray for a heaven sent revival.

I heard this same cant from years of experience. We got down our knees and prayed. Then we went home and turned on television.

Sadly, it seems that God requires more. Read the book of Ezra. From memory, I believe that God's people had lost their way. When the prophet called to mind that fact, the king commaned a fast a a reading of the law to the people.

The people repented.

I doubt that happening in the USA.

[RnMomof7]

Steve I think God knows the heart..but is marketing any different than Arminian salvation....a God needs me approach

I believe there are some natural things a church can and should do AS MINISTRY like literacy classes..food banks...your ESL ...

There are things a church should do as family ..celebrate and morn.....BUT God knows the purpose . Is it to attract numbers or is it to wash feet?

I fought with my pastor about the saddle back program....it is very carnal.

The Baptist church in the same neighborhood started an awana program and has run a Thursday program during the summer to minister to the kids....the church will grow because of them....but God knows the intention was it to minister or to grow?

I did prison ministry for years...it was intended to bring the gospel ..not to grow a church...

Am I making what I think on this clear? We minister in HIS name because it is what we are to do..not to grow a church. The the compassion and love is a self serving lie if the real purpose is only church growth IMHO

[RnMomof7]

That was my point Don..

[RnMomof7]

sorry #24

[drstevej]

I think we are very much in agreement.

One thought: If I want the church to grow because it glorfies me, that's sin. If I want the church to grow numerically and spiritually because it glorifies Him, that's obedience to the Great Comission. Motivation is KEY.

[sonrise57]

I'm aware of the cliche of what I posted, however the alternative is to surrender and leave the field.

I believe that it is possible for massive cultural shift to take place and I am going to ask God to, in his mercy, allow that cultural shift to take place toward God. Since I believe that Jesus is going to build his church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it, the church is going to thrive and survive somewhere on earth. The question is, what will become of it here in the US.

[DittoJed2]

His statistics bear out his negative reaction- however, something that is alive and vibrant does not need revival. God sends revival to a church that threatens to become a corpse. He always has, and He always will.

[sonrise57]

I agree it God in his sovreignty will or will not add to a particular local congregation. However, we need to have a desire for and be praying for growth if the motivation of that desire and prayer is the "souls" that growth represents.

[sonrise57]

That is a great point and gives me hope.

[don-o]

That was my point Don..

If so, then good on you.

"Marketing" the church is a million miles wide and an inch thick.

[sonrise57]

And the current state of affairs is the result of pastors like myself looking for the quick fix of Barna's prescriptions rather than waiting on God.

[RnMomof7]

Woops the great commission was not to grow churchs Pastor ..it was to preach and baptise.

I think it is easy to fool ourselves into thinking full pews mean saved people..not so...

I have belonged to a mega church....the gospel was so compromised an atheist could have said amen .

God has selected His army. The church is to equip them. The problem is when the church thinks the recruiting is THEIR job no one gets equipped!..

I am very evangelical..but I have no interst in growing a church for any man or demonination.

[RnMomof7]

Yep..we agree

[sonrise57]

I disagree . . . to baptize is to provide the sacrament of initiation to those who have responded to the preaching. If those who recieve the preaching are initiated into the church, the church will grow. Evangelism without initiating people into a local church is incomplete evangelism. Yes, God is sovreign. Only those who are called will respond to the preaching. But fully observing the great comission will result in church growth. Maybe not in the one I pastor, but the church will continue to grow until the consumation of the ages.

[don-o]

Yep..we agree

I doubt it. Because, I know the way you work the threads. Define what we agree on. For the record.

For the record, I disagree with any position that makes every man his own pope.

[Illbay]

What does "from everlasting to everlasting" mean

What is the meaning of Exodus 22:28?

Of Deuteronomy 10:17?

Of Joshua 22:22?

Psalms 82:1? 82:6? 135:5? 136:2?

How about John 10:34-35?

Lots of questions, but few answers.

[don-o]

I disagree . . . to baptize is to provide the sacrament of initiation to those who have responded to the preaching.

oops.

You said the S word.

Sacrements are not well thought of in certain quarters here.

Advice: Don asbestos underpants.

[sonrise57]

Its a good word. I can take it.