I've successfully helped friends out of schismatic circles. I understand the teeth grinding frustration that drives them there. Reality in our Church stinks right now. People, good decent honest people are looking for answers. Some of them go astray. They are honest in their zeal but incorrect in their conclusions.
Your approach does not work with them. It drives them further into schism.
Handle them gently, charitably.
Their anger grows from the destruction they see around them. In many ways it is a just anger, but what they see as the solution is not a solution but a dead end.
Pray for them. Their frustration is real, their anger legitimate, but their conclusions are simply wrong. They don't need condemnation, they need help, like a pregnant woman seeking an abortion.
Narses is sincere, even if in certain respects he is partly in error.
Sinkspur is sincere.
You are sincere, I am sincere.
Ascribing motives to narses does not help him. Condemning narses does not help him.
Lay off.
If you cannot engage him with charity and patience, you are doing a disservice to our faith, and driving him deeper into the very errors you perceive him to be in.
The teeth grinding frustration of average Catholics is REAL. We're all searching. We all need to step back and stop judging our neighbor simply because he has reached conclusions out of line with our own.
Such judgementalism and vitriol will never bring them home.
Even if narses is fatally wrong, your approach is just as wrong. Knock it off.
Narses became a member on 6/22/02. On that very same day, in response to my post that the SSPX confessions are invalid, he beings by attacking The Magisterium. My post was apt as we were discussing Confession on this thread. Narses, introduces a non sequitur, on his first day, in an attack on the magisterium.
If this is not Narses first post as a freeper, he can correct the record. It is undeniable that this was his first day - at least registered under this name. I have no doubt he has been here under another name. He is not newbie who just happened to jump in and start posting from schismatic websites. But, he is smart enough to know that most folks are not as vigiliant as are those who have had flirtations with the schism. He was prolly surprised to find one who could spot his bs so rapidly. The "game" continues and it is shamelesss.
I spotted him right away and I was man enough to withstand him to his face. He posts from infamous websites that publicly oppose the Pope and he attempts to explian this away by saying I am new here and I was just interested.....Please. That is so bogus.
To: Catholicguy A reminder that the SSPX Confessions are invalid http://home.earthlink.net/~gro ssklas/penance.htm 9 posted on 6/22/02 12:37 PM Pacific by Catholicguy [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: Catholicguy And yet a Mass without the words of the Consecration in a heretical and schismatic church is.
“Last summer the Vatican’s Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, with the full agreement of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the Congregations for the Oriental Churches, issued a series of guidelines for Eucharistic sharing between the Chaldean church (which is in communion with Rome) and the Assyrian church of the East (which is not). The guidelines are revolutionary in character. For the first time in modern history, the Catholic church has recognized the validity of a eucharistic prayer (the Anaphora of Addai and Mari) without the words of institution (“This is my body. ...This is my blood”), more commonly referred to as the words of consecration.
In the popular Catholic mind, especially before Vatican II, these words have had an almost magical quality. Whenever a validly ordained priest utters them over a large host (often times over a ciborium full of smaller hosts as well) and then over a chalice containing wine, Christ immediately “comes down” from heaven, taking the form of bread and wine to be received by the faithful as holy Communion, that is, His very “body and blood, soul and divinity.”
21 posted on 6/22/02 5:01 PM Pacific by narses [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
That was narses on the same first day he was a freeper - I mean the first day he was a freeper under this name. He came loaded for bear and his target was the Pope and The Magisterium.
Now, I have corrected his errors about this issue three times. patent and sisstetest have also corrected him yet he continues to persevere. He was wrong in labelling a Rite "heretical" which he has repeatedly done. And he was wrong to mischaracterise the decision of the Curial Office which acts in the name and authority of the Pope.
YOU may think he is acting sincerely. I think he came here with an agenda and he has implemented it in a dishonest, craven and duplicitous, unmanly fashion and I called him out.
Your approach does not work with them. It drives them further into schism. I disagree. They are not victims. They chose to be in schism. They are adults. Their decisions and the consequences of those decisions ought to be as frankly and honestly addressed as their dishonest characterisations of Rome are supposed to be attended to sympathetically. IMO, their constant badgering of the Pope and The Mgisterium is intended to keep the path to reunion strewn with debris if reunion means they will not get what they desire, a return to the staus quo ante of 1962.
Handle them gently, charitably. Initially, I did. See the thread that Narses began on his first day. But, it didn't take more than a few exchanges to see he was flying the SSPX colors.
Their anger grows from the destruction they see around them. In many ways it is a just anger, but what they see as the solution is not a solution but a dead end. agreed
Pray for them. Their frustration is real, their anger legitimate, but their conclusions are simply wrong. They don't need condemnation, they need help, like a pregnant woman seeking an abortion. Totally inapt analogy. They are abortionists trying to assure any Reunion tween schismatics and Rome is a stillbirth.
Narses is sincere, even if in certain respects he is partly in error. I disagree he is sincere. I have posted my reasons why. He came with an agenda, clearly.
Sinkspur is sincere. agreed. And he acts like a man. He does not mask his intentions or claim to be a neophyte.
You are sincere,agreed I am sincere.
Ascribing motives to narses does not help him. Condemning narses does not help him. It is very helpful to have one with an agenda exposed.
Lay off. No way. Defending the Pope and The Magisterium is my bailiwick. When are you going to lay-on?
If you cannot engage him with charity and patience, you are doing a disservice to our faith, and driving him deeper into the very errors you perceive him to be in. Defending the Pope and The Magisterium, far from being a disservice,is a DUTY. He is spreading falsehoods, lies, distortions, confusion, dissension, antipathy to the Pope and The Magisterium. I am doing the opposite. A "Thank-you" would make more sense and instead I get a caution to adopt quietism in the face of opposition to the Pope and The Magisterium
The teeth grinding frustration of average Catholics is REAL. We're all searching. We all need to step back and stop judging our neighbor simply because he has reached conclusions out of line with our own. I am NOT "searching." I don't even know what the hell that means. I am HOME. He is reaching "comclusions out of line with mine," he is OPPOSING Divinely-constituted authority.
Such judgementalism and vitriol will never bring them home. They must bring themselves back home. They can BEFIN by STOPPING the attacks on the Pope. You seem oddly patient and sanguine with attacks on Divinely-constituted authority yet you seem genuinely moved in your concerns for the preciousness, dignity and feelings of those that attack the Pope. And as for my delicate fellings? Not even a mention
Even if narses is fatally wrong, your approach is just as wrong. Knock it off NO WAY. Hell, I aint even BEGUN yet. Rhetorically, I am just taking off the gloves. wait'll ya get a load of what I have in my ammo dump :)