MAN OF THE SHROUD

Various ^ | August 2002

[american colleen]

Check this out: "The Sudarium of Oviedo: Its History and Relationship to the Shroud of Turin"

[JesseShurun]

Check this out: John 20:7. It is written.

[JMJ333]

To: JesseShurun Please post your bible verse. And then please explain away my post 45. Don't come on the thread, make an accusation and then fling out some lame pronunciation on what you think is correct. Prove it.

56 posted on 8/24/02 7:15 PM Central by JMJ333 [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

I'll assume you have no argument.

[Codie]

I am not responsible to bad manners.

Or any real substansive answers either.

[JesseShurun]

Sorry. Look it up. I don't respond well to abuse. Ask the Calvinists.

[JMJ333]

I know what it says already, but since you came on the thread and pronounced the shroud as a fake, I am taking you to task for it. Expect people to challenge you when you throw out comments like your post to NYer.

[american colleen]

Check this out: John 20:7. It is written.

Jesse, I know the Bible, and I know the verse you cite. It is perfectly in accordance with the Sudarium Christi and the Shroud of Turin.

I'm guessing you dismiss both out of hand because they are held by the Catholic Church. Pity, it is your loss.

[NYer]

Check this out: John 20:7. It is written.

Your post is an excellent example of the problems that result when individuals interpret the Bible, without any guidance. Recall that John's original gospel was written in Greek.

Now, check this out:

Taking the body, Joseph wrapped it in fresh linen ... Matthew 29:59

Then, having bought a linen shroud, Joseph took him down, wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a tomb which had been cut out of rock ... Mark 15:6

He took it down, wrapped it in fine linen, and laid it in a tomb hewn out of the rock ... Luke 23:53

When describing the burial cloths of Jesus, the first three Gospels clearly refer to Jesus being laid in a sindon or shroud at burial (see above). The alleged inconsistency between the Shroud and John's descriptions of burial cloths arose because some translators (e.g. New English Bible, New International Version) incorrectly translated the word othonia, found in John 19:40 and 20:5-7, to mean "narrow bands" or "strips of linen."

In fact, othonia can refer to cloths of all sizes and shapes. The ancient Greek writer Dioskorides not only used othonia to mean a sheet but also coupled it with the verb eneilein (envelop in a sheet, eneilesas othonio, which is the verb that Mark chose to describe the burial of Jesus in a shroud (eneilesente sindoni).

[JMJ333]

Colleen is right. It won't matter to Jesse. His mind is made up.

[JesseShurun]

Believe whatever you want to believe. It's a free country. I'll believe the gospel of John which says clearly that the head was wrapped separately, no fancy personal interpretations necessary. The most important thing to believe is that He rose from the dead and that the tomb was empty. The scraps of cloth were discarded. The Word is eternal.

[NYer]

I'll believe the gospel of John which says clearly that the head was wrapped separately

Then we both believe in the same gospel!

"Simon Peter, following him, also came up, went into the tomb, saw the linen cloth lying on the ground, and also the cloth that had been over his head; this was not with the linen cloth but rolled up in a place by itself." ... John 20:6-7.

Coincidence with the Shroud

The sudarium alone has revealed sufficient information to suggest that it was in contact with the face of Jesus after the crucifixion. However, the really fascinating evidence comes to light when this cloth is compared to the Shroud of Turin.

The first and most obvious coincidence is that the blood on both cloths belongs to the same group, namely AB.

The length of the nose through which the pleural oedema fluid came onto the sudarium has been calculated at eight centimetres, just over three inches. This is exactly the same length as the nose on the image of the Shroud.

If the face of the image on the Shroud is placed over the stains on the sudarium, perhaps the most obvious coincidence is the exact fit of the stains with the beard on the face. As the sudarium was used to clean the man's face, it appears that it was simply placed on the face to absorb all the blood, but not used in any kind of wiping movement.

A small stain is also visible proceeding from the right hand side of the man's mouth. This stain is hardly visible on the Shroud, but Dr. John Jackson, using the VP-8 and photo enhancements has confirmed its presence.

The thorn wounds on the nape of the neck also coincide perfectly with the bloodstains on the Shroud.

Dr. Alan Whanger applied the Polarized Image Overlay Technique to the sudarium, comparing it to the image and bloodstains on the Shroud. The frontal stains on the sudarium show seventy points of coincidence with the Shroud, and the rear side shows fifty. The only possible conclusion is that the Oviedo sudarium covered the same face as the Turin Shroud.

[xzins]

I'm pretty sure that carbon 14 testing a few years back was conclusive that this was not a first century cloth. That's pretty heavy evidence to counter.

Really, though, it isn't significant. The burial cloth of Jesus is not salvation and never has been. Christianity has advanced by God's power for centuries without any knowledge of where/when/how of the burial shroud.

Finally, if someone wants to believe it is authentic, that's fine. We all get to choose. But, it won't make a difference in the faith or doctrine of anyone else.

[american colleen]

I'm pretty sure that carbon 14 testing a few years back was conclusive that this was not a first century cloth. That's pretty heavy evidence to counter.

Not to belabor the point, but the Carbon 14 testing has been pretty much debunked. The testing was done on a part of the Shroud that had been burnt and repaired in the 1500s. Plus, it has been shown that Carbon dating testing from the 1980s is not reliable because of the limitations of science at that time.

Anyway, belief in the Shroud is not necessary for salvation, of course, but it is a fascinating topic and one worthy of further research, IMO.

[NYer]

But, it won't make a difference in the faith or doctrine of anyone else.

I beg to differ. The author of the book: 'The Resurrection of the Shroud', Mark Antonacci was a committed agnostic and lawyer. He was drawn into this topic as the result of an article in a newspaper, promoting a book on the subject. He writes:

"I purchased the book featured in the article, as well as other books and articles on the subject. In the following years, I acquired access to practically everything that has ever been printed in the English language on the Shroud, as well as translations of major foreign publications. I have always been interested in history and am an attorney by training, and as I seriously considered the potential implications of all of the evidence, I realized this one matter could be more important than all of the cases that had ever been argued before the Supreme Court."

As a result of his research, Mark Antonacci became a christian.

[drstevej]

I have read some on the Shroud, but not enough to draw any conclusions. If it is genuine, it has apologetic value as your post notes.

[american colleen]

My copy of 'The Resurrection of the Shroud' should be delivered by UPS (I love those guys) on Tuesday. I can't wait!

[Catholicguy]

I'm pretty sure that carbon 14 testing a few years back was conclusive that this was not a first century cloth. That's pretty heavy evidence to counter. Scroll back and click on the link I provided and read for yourself. Dr. Michael Tite ran a scam. The cloth samples tested differed in weight from the cloth samples cut from the Shroud. It was a clear case of substituting samples taken from another source, The Cope of St. Louis. Dr. Michael Tite was advertsing worldwide for just such an article of clothing to match his results against the Shroud. He got caught. Please read the link I provided. Really, though, it isn't significant. Itis very significant and could well help another to follow Jesus The burial cloth of Jesus is not salvation and never has been. Christianity has advanced by God's power for centuries without any knowledge of where/when/how of the burial shroud. Finally, if someone wants to believe it is authentic, that's fine. We all get to choose. But, it won't make a difference in the faith or doctrine of anyone else It certainly could. There are many who do not believe Jesus existed. This could be the additional proof doubters need

[american colleen]

Thanks to both of you. I've always looked at the Shroud and the Sudarium Christi as mystical gifts left to us by our Lord, they humble me and fill me with awe (and shame and sadden me when I see His wounds), but neither are necessary for my belief in Him. I, selfishly, never looked at the Shroud or the Sudarium Christi as you both do - and you are right, they do have the ability to convert non-believers, as evidenced by your posts.

Thank you again.

[Catholicguy]

http://www.crc-internet.org/shroud3.htm#proof

Thanks, AC. Here is a link to a few of the paragraphs on the Holy Shroud re differences in the samples cut and the different sampoles weighed. The entire piece deserves reading notwithstanding the fact it was done by a group opposed to Vatican Two, The Pope etc

[RnMomof7]

Is this the burial cloth of Jesus christ? if so it has no practicle impact in the life of believers..by faith without seeking for a "sign " we believe

Here is my concern

Remember this incident?

  Num 21:7   Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
     Num 21:8   And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.   
  Num 21:9   And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Jesus later referenced this pole and snake as a type of Christ

     Jhn 3:14   And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
     Jhn 3:15   That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life

What concerns me is the final outcome of that pole..a pole intended by God to prefigure Christ became an object of worship and caused men to take their eyes OFF God and worship the creature more than the creator

        2Ki 18:1   Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, [that] Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign.
     2Ki 18:2   Twenty and five years old was he when he began to reign; and he reigned twenty and nine years in Jerusalem. His mother's name also [was] Abi, the daughter of Zachariah.
     2Ki 18:3   And he did [that which was] right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did.
     2Ki 18:4 
  He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

It is the nature of man to seek signs and to worship reils and objects..

Jhn 8:28   Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

The shroud is just a piece of cloth..what is precious is the fact that the one that some believe wore it is risen! The tomb is empty!