Syllabus of 60 "Traditionalist" Errors, Fallacies, and False Principles

The Donatists and Novatianists Live:

"Traditionalist" and Schis | matic Catholics

St. Joseph's Church, Detroit, MI: A Traditional Novus Ordo Parish (link to an article)

The history of Christian doctrine is . . . an avenue into the authentic continuity of Christian believing, teaching, and confessing. Tradition is the living faith of the dead; traditionalism is the dead faith of the living.

(Jaroslav Pelikan, The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine: vol. 1 of 5: The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100-600), Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 1971, 9)

Click the banner to learn more about and purchase this book and additional popular apologetics and theology titles by Dave Armstrong

See also the Ecumenism & Salvation "Outside" the Catholic Church page for links on the topics of Salvation Outside the Church, Feeneyism, Religious Liberty, Ecumenism, and Comparative Religion. See the Church page for papers and links about authority issues, and the male priesthood, and the Theological Liberalism & Modernism page for vigorous critiques of various modernist errors (also the Agnosticism, Atheism, Humanism, and Secularism page). The Papacy and Infallibility page contains information on conciliar infallibility also. Political conservatism is explicated on the Politics and Social Activism page, and traditional morality links can be found on the Moral Theology page.

Syllabus of 60 "Traditionalist" Errors, Fallacies, and False Principles 96K
Critique of my Syllabus of 60 "Traditionalist" Errors and My Counter-Reply (Dave Armstrong vs. Mark Cameron) 19K
Dialogue: Catholic "Traditionalism": the Dreadful Malady of the Mind and Scourge of an Optimistic Faith in God's Protection of His Church 29K
Critique of The Remnant, with Copious Documentation 100K
Dialogue on The Remnant ("Traditionalist" Group) 81K
Dialogue with a Troubled Semi-Traditionalist on the "Catastrophe" of the Post-Vatican II Church 80K
Dialogue: So-Called "Traditionalists" vs. So-Called "Conservatives" 29K
Protestant Contra-Catholic Revisionist History: Pope St. Pius X and Cardinal Newman's Alleged "Modernism" 132K
Dietrich von Hildebrand and Legitimate Catholic Traditionalism 45K
Dialogue: The "Traditionalist" Disdain for the Second Vatican Council: Is it Consistent With Catholic Tradition? Is it Binding on All Catholics? (With Copious References, and a Discussion of the Infallibility and Sublime Authority of Conciliar and Papal Decrees and Pronouncements) 189K
Reflections on False Catholic "Traditionalism" 34K
Conciliar Infallibility: Church Documents 23K
Pre-Vatican II Ecumenism 13K
Apologia for Catholic Ecumenism and Christian Unity 14K
How Anti-Catholics Can be Catholics' Brothers in Christ (Truth Wherever it is Found, Ignorance, and Invincible Ignorance) 42K
A Defense of the Ecumenical Gathering at Assisi (Ecumenism in St. Thomas Aquinas) (Fr. Alfredo M. Morselli) 35K
A Response to (and Wonderment at) Criticisms of the Second Ecumenical Gathering at Assisi (2002) (Mark P. Shea) 25K
Dialogue: Should the Pope Kiss The Koran?: Ecumenism as an Effort to Acknowledge Partial Truth Wherever it is Found 71K
"Why Doesn't Pope John Paul II DO Something About the Modernist Dissenters in the Catholic Church?" 39K
Are All Catholic Laymen and Non-Theologians Qualified to Freely and Frequently Criticize the Pope's Opinions and Prudential Judgment? 72K
Dialogue: Baptism, the Mystical Body of Christ, and Implications for Ecumenism 18K
Dialogue: Vatican II and Other Religions (Nostra Aetate) 20K
My Traditional Novus Ordo Parish 16K
How to Receive Communion: Tradition, Abuses, Symbolism, and Piety 13K

EXTERNAL LINKS

General / Miscellaneous

ULTRATRADITIONALISTS (website by "Matt1618")
On Liberal and Ultraconservative "Catholicism" (Luke Wadel)
A Prescription Against Traditionalism (I. Shawn McElhinney)
Apologetics Papers and Critiques of False "Traditionalism" (I. Shawn McElhinney)
The "Remnant" (Mattite) Sect (I. Shawn McElhinney)
Confusing Culture With 'Tradition' (I. Shawn McElhinney)
THE SYLLABUS OF ERRORS (I. Shawn McElhinney)
Was Pope John Paul II Ritually Anointed by a Hindu in India? (James Akin)
Catholic Encyclopedia: OLD CATHOLICS
Schismatic Traditionalists (Matt C. Abbott)
An Open Letter to Confused Traditionalists (F. John Loughnan)
Traditionalists and the Epistemology of Protestantism: Private Judgment (Stephen Hand)
Detection and Overthrow of the ‘Traditionalist Catholics’ Falsely So-Called (I. Shawn McElhinney, Dr. Art Sippo, and "Matt1618")
ORTHODOXY AND TRADITIONALISM (Gerard V. Bradley)
Christian Unity and the Role of Authority: The Infallibility of the Church and the Pope (I. Shawn McElhinney)

Vatican II

What Went Wrong With Vatican II? (Ralph McInerny)
Vatican II and its Authority (I. Shawn McElhinney)
Making the True Vatican II Our Own (John Saward)
Formal Debate: Was Vatican II an Infallible Council? (Adam Kolasinski vs. Art Sippo)
Was Vatican Council II Voided by Pope Pius II's "Execrabilis"? (F. John Loughnan)

Non-Schismatic Traditionalist, Tridentine / Novus Ordo Latin Mass, and Liturgical Reform Websites and Articles

Traditional Catholic Reflections & Reports © (website: Stephen Hand)
Integrism, Integrist, Extreme Traditionalists (web page: Stephen Hand)
The Pete Vere Homepage (orthodox traditionalist canonist)
Apologetics Papers and Critiques of False "Traditionalism" (I. Shawn McElhinney)
Agenda (William Grossklas; contra-SSPX website)
F. John Loughnan's Page (former SSPX member)
The Catholic Liturgical Library
Traditional Latin Mass
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi Web Site
The History Buff's Catholic Website
Latin Mass Magazine
JAMES LIKOUDIS' PAGE
A Bill of Rights for Orthodox Catholics (Mark J. Kelly)
Registry of Papally-Approved Traditional (Tridentine) Masses
Latin Mass (Novus Ordo) Directory for the USA
And to the Latin Mass (Tim Padgett; Time, June 7, 1999)
A New "Way" for the Church (Opus Dei) (Antonio Gaspari)
''Changes in Mass for Greater Apostolate'' (Pope Paul VI audience)
''The Mass is the Same'' (Pope Paul VI audience)
In Defense of the Novus Ordo Mass ("Matt 1618")
A Short Primer on the Mass (I. Shawn McElhinney)
The Red Herring of Communion in the Hand (I. Shawn McElhinney and "Matt1618")
A Micro Look at the Pauline Mass (I. Shawn McElhinney)
THE PAULINE LITURGY: A TRUE RESTORATION (I. Shawn McElhinney)
THE ALTAR AND THE DIRECTION OF LITURGICAL PRAYER (Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger)
THE MASS OF VATICAN II (Joseph Fessio, S.J.)
ARE WE BALKANIZING CATHOLIC WORSHIP? (Helen Hull Hitchcock)
VANDALIZING CHURCHES (James Hitchcock)
Review of Coomaraswamy's The Problems With the New Mass (William G. Most)
Liturgical Abuses: The Church Speaks
Rethinking Communion in the Hand (Jude A. Huntz)

SSPX / Lefebvrites

Introduction to the Lefebvrist Schism (James Akin)
Decree of Excommunication on Marcel Lefebvre
The Protocol of Agreement of the Vatican and Archbishop Lefebvre
Archbishop Lefebvre and the Declaration on Religious Liberty (William G. Most)
Ecclesia Dei (Pope John Paul II on the schismatic Society of St. Pius X)
Agenda (William Grossklas; anti-SSPX website)
A Canonical History of the Lefebvrite Schism (Peter J. Vere)
My Journey Out of the Lefebvre Schism: All Tradition Leads to Rome (Pete Vere)
A Case Study In Modern-Day Donatism (I. Shawn McElhinney)
Is the Society of St. Pius X in Schism? A Recent Response from Rome (F. John Loughnan)
Status of Society of St. Pius X Masses (Pontifical Commission on Ecclesia Dei)
Status of SSPX (Pontifical Commission on Ecclesia Dei)
The Flat Earth Society and SSPX-Type "Traditionalists" (F. John Loughnan)
Schism, Obedience, & SSPX (John Beaumont & John Walsh)
MY REASONS FOR WITHDRAWING SUPPORT FROM THE SOCIETY OF ST. PIUS X (F. John Loughnan)
Lefebvrism: Jansenism Revisited? (Anthony Fisher) + SSPX Type Traditionalists (F. John Loughnan)

Sedevacantism

Do-it Yourself Popes: The Wacky World of Sedevacantists (Michael Petek)
A One-Step Refutation of Sedevacantism (I. Shawn McElhinney)

Compiled by Dave Armstrong. Thorough URL Revision: 13 February 2002. Updated: 13 May 2002.

Uh oh.

Not as they seem ... Schismatic Sites	Docs and Articles Faithful Sites
Take a look at some of the mail this page is generating ...

Not As They Seem ...

Over the last few years, religious web sites of every stripe have sprung up across the internet. Not all of them, however, are what they appear to be at first sight.

When I first began to browse the internet, I was drawn to the Catholic sites, and had a huge collection of them in my favorites folder. As soon as I found a new one, in it went. I spent hours typing religious words into the search bar to see what would come up, and followed all the links on the new sites I found. I was like a little kid in a candy shop ... or perhaps even more like a drunk in a liquor store, because it took me a long time to realize that some of the "Catholic sites" ... really weren't.

They all looked so good! They talked about the Rosary, the Mass, the Blessed Mother ... they had all of those pretty pictures that I remembered from the holy cards the nuns used to hand out when I was a little girl in parochial school. They felt so "comfortable" that I never really explored the web sites very deeply. I never felt I needed to.

Need to dig a little deeper ...

One day, I ran across a site called "Catholic Apologetics." It was such a nice site! They had Catholic Prayers, pretty icons, and all sorts of cuddly, fuzzy, warm Catholic things. I was so impressed with the site that we featured it! The fellow who runs the site and I exchanged emails, and over a period of time, I began to wonder about some of the stuff he was writing. Among other things that aroused my suspicions was the fact that he seemed to think that I would be better off to missing Mass completely than attending a "New Mass."

Going back to his site, I explored it more deeply. I was disappointed to find that his site was rife with articles in defense of the excommunicated Archbishop LeFebvre, condemnations of the "Novus Ordo" (New Mass,) condemnations of Vatican II, and a confusing mixture of articles that, on one hand, accept the Holy Father and his authority, and on the other, reject them both.

Hard to discern the good from the bad

As bad as this last site sounds, it still isn't as bad as others I've seen. Some of them believe that the Papacy has been vacant since Pope Pius XII, and that all of the other Popes since then have been usurpers. Those who believe this are called "Sedevacantists."

And then there are those who disagree with the original LeFebvrists on one point or another, and those who disagree with the "disagree-ers" on yet other points ... and on down the line, until they become indistinguishable from the original 'protest'-ants. Some of them belong to the schismatic SSPX society itself, and go so far as to deny that there even is a schism! And, almost unbelievably, some still call themselves Roman Catholic after electing their own pope!

One thing they all have in common, however, is that they all call themselves "traditionalists." I beg to differ on that point, since "traditionally," Roman Catholics do not disobey the Holy Father and the Magisterium.

Doing the homework ...

There are many levels and shades of these extreme right wing schismatics, and it makes it very hard for an obedient, faithful Catholic to tell if they've found a real Catholic web site which is faithful to the Magisterium, or if they've stumbled across a schismatic site that inserts little (or large) drops of poison here and there against Rome, Vatican II, the Holy Father ...

In order to discover if a particular web site is really a true, faithful, traditional web site that loves the Traditions of the Church without promoting disobedience, or if it's a schismatic site that only calls itself "traditional," you have to dig deeply into everything they say, and all of the little links they provide for you. A good way to tell is if they promote other web sites that belong to the SSPX or SSPV, if they have articles in defense of Archbishop LeFebvre, or say they are trying to "convert 'Catholics' to Catholicism." (Humility doesn't seem to be part of the deal ... )

Some are more difficult to pinpoint, although the overall tone is schismatic. The only thing to do when you're not sure is to keep the webmasters in prayer - and exercise great caution when visiting. Of course, if you can find other sites that are more trustworthy and provide the same services, you may be better off avoiding the more suspicious ones altogether.

How to use this page

We've done a bit of research for you. We've included links to articles and letters that explain the schism in more detail, and give the views of Rome on the issue. Among those links, you can find Archbishop LeFebvre's Decree of Excommunication, and other similar documents.

Also included on this page are two lists that should help you discern the faithful from the schismatic:

One contains the names of websites that promote material we were able to identify as schismatic, either openly like the overt SSPX websites, or in a more subtle way, for example: including links to schismatic websites or articles as part of their own apologetics. Many of them openly don't say a word about not being in union with Rome, but have articles telling Catholics to not attend the "New Mass," or telling them that continuing to follow the Holy Father will lead to damnation. Some of them claim to still be within the Church, but their material indicates otherwise.

I had wanted to color code the links in order to show what the particular problem with each site was, but there were so many factors involved that it wouldn't have been practical. We'd have had some gorgeous rainbows tho! ;)

The second list contains websites that are both "Traditional," and faithful to the Holy Father and the Magisterium. These sites are a breath of fresh air for all of us, and a sign of hope for those who yearn for a return to the Tridentine Mass.

We will continue to add links to both lists, and any new articles that may surface. If there are any sites you would like us to take a look at,

A discerning spirit will be able to distinguish between "traditional," and "Traditional."

Back to the top

Schismatic Websites

The Society of Saint Pius X The Aquinas Site Catholic Insight Catholic Tradition Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus St. Mary's Academy and College The Immaculata Bookstore Franciscan Friars, Rochester, NY Missionaries of the Holy Ghost Catholic Counter-Reformation St. Mich. Arch. Trad. RC Chapel	In Hoc Signo Vinces Saint Benedict Center Traditional Mass Congregation of St. Mary Daily Catholic Daughters of Mary Catholic Caveman Traditional Catholic Information The Society of St. Pius V Cong. of Most Holy Redeemer Magnificat of Mother of God	MAETA Society of Christ the King The Society of the Virgin Mary League of Catholic Chatters Traditio Where Peter Is Catholic Apologetics True Catholic RC's Of Holy Apostolic Trad. Pope Michael TradCentral
Note that Mary's Remnant will not enter into "dialogue" with schismatics. If you don't feel your site should be on this list, then remove whatever it is on your website that caused you to end up here. Let us know what you've done, and we'll come take a look. At that time, we will update our pages according to what we find there. If you belong to one of the organizations listed above and feel that the organization itself should not be listed as "schismatic," then please take it up with the leaders of the organization or the authorities of the Church. Back to the top

Faithful Traditional Websites

Theotokos Online
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi
Institute Of Christ The King
The Kolbe Group
Society of Saint John
The Militia of the Immaculata
Institute on Religious Life
Opus Dei

The Latin Mass Society
Biblical Foundations Int.
Latin Mass Magazine
Divine Mercy World Apost.
New Advent
EWTN
The Vatican
Community of Saint John

Back to the top

Keep the Faith
Ecclesia Dei
Opus Mariae Mediatricis
Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter
Una Voce
Catholic Pages
Frans. Miss. of Eternal Word
Mary's Yellowstone :)

Documents and Articles

About the priests and lay people who follow LeFebvre
Status Of The Society Of St. Pius X
Arcbishop LeFebvre's Decree Of Excommunication
The Protocol Agreement Of The Vatican And Archbishop LeFebvre
Archbishop LeFebvre And The Declaration On Religious Liberty
To The Society Of St. Pius X: "You Can't Have It Both Ways!"
What's A Catholic To Do As Allure To Schism Grows Stronger?
In Defence Of The Novus Ordo Missae
A Critique of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX)
The "Traditionalist" Disdain for the Second Vatican Council
Syllabus of 60 "Traditionalist" Errors, Fallacies, and False Principles
Fr. Gruner, Fátima Crusader, Catholic Family News
Restoring the Liturgy: How We Must Proceed
Lists of "catholics" not in union with Pope John Paul II
My Journey out of the Lefebvre Schism

Back to the top

Just posting a few resources I've found helpful over the last few years. I think I checked all the links. Let me know if any don't work. I don't have my full ping list right this minute though...

Frankly, I'm just posting this for anyone interested, and I'm not planning on debating the content. Please ping anyone you think would appreciate seeing these resources.

VALIDITY OF THE MASS OF POPE PAUL VI

The Uncivil War of Rites: Confusing Culture and ‘Tradition’...by I. Shawn McElhinney
The Red Herring of Communion in the Hand...by I. Shawn McElhinney and Matt1618

Updated and Revised, 1/11/01!!!A Micro Look at the Pauline Mass...by I. Shawn McElhinney
The Pauline Rite: A True Restoration...by Shawn McElhinney

Detection and Overthrow of the ‘Traditionalist Catholics’ Falsely So-Called", coauthored by Shawn McElhinney, Dr. Art Sippo, and Matt1618

Part 2 of Project: Comparing the Tridentine/Pauline Masses...by Matt1618

For All or For Many: An Exchange on the Issue...by Matt1618

In Defense of the Pauline Rite Mass...by Matt1618
Review of Coomaraswamy's "The Problems With the New Mass"...by Father William G. Most
Jesus Died for All, Not Many: A Refutation of Schismatic Heresy...by Matt1618

Pope St. Pius V and Quo Primum: Did the Pope Intend to Bind His Successors from Changing the Tridentine Mass?...by Jeffrey Mirus

And of course my own thoughts:

FreeRepublic.com "A Conservative News Forum"

[ Browse | Search | Topics | Post Article | My Comments ]

Click to scroll to commentary.

Catholic Caucus: "Guidelines" re: discussions of Liturgy, other prudential decisions?

Posted on 07/30/2002 1:54 PM Eastern by Polycarp

Can I suggest "Guidelines" for our Catholic Caucus regarding Liturgy and ask for imput?

1) Popes have authority over discipline. The Liturgy is a matter of discipline. As such, changes in discipline are prudential judgements, and not necessarily protected by the Holy Spirit from error. However, since Liturgy is the primary means of catechesis in Faith and Morals, such changes are grave matters. And criticism of these prudential decisions is valid BUT can only be undertaken knowing that such criticism itself is a grave matter and should only be undertaken by those with a deep enough understanding of these issues that their criticism itself does not cause scandal or lead the innocent into schism or disobedience where obedience is due.

2) Since Popes have authority over discipline, any Eucharistic Liturgy they promulgate ---if it has the proper matter and form--- is by its very nature Valid and Licit. No Pope is bound in disciplinary matters by previous Popes.

3) These are difficult times. Simply questioning and searching, honestly, does not make one a schismatic. Questioning the link between the current grave scandals and the changes in the Church since Vatican II and the promulgation of the Novus Ordo mass does not make one a schismatic, though some conclusions drawn may clearly and onjectively be incorrect.

5)Denying Papal authority over the discipline of the Liturgy does make one schismatic.

6) Denying the Novus Ordo is valid and licit or that Pope Paul VI had the authority to promulgate it does make one schismatic.

7) Questioning the fruits of the Novus Ordo, the quality and quantity of its catechesis, and pointing out where and when it becomes illicit or invalid is not schismatic.

8) Questioning the prudential judgement of the Pope can be done charitably in some circumstances but most often lately such questioning has itself been imprudent.

Can all non-schismatic orthodox Catholics here agree with these points?

TOPICS: General Discusssion; Click to Add Topic
KEYWORDS: DISCIPLINE; FAITH; MORALS; NOVUS ORDO; PRUDENCE; VATICAN II; Click to Add Keyword

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These are difficult times. It is grossly unjust and uncharitable to label good sincere faithful Catholics as schismatics, extreme trads, or integrists simply because they are searching for the roots of the current crises in the Church.

The definition of schism in these matters is clear:

Denying the authority of the Pope over matters of discipline, including the Liturgy, is schismatic. Denying the validity of the new mass, its inherent licitness, or the right of the Pope to promulgate it is schismatic. Denying that Vatican II was not a valid council is schismatic.

Some things are not schismatic, so much as imprudent or possibly dissenting or disobedient. Some things are none of these, only simple honest differences of opinion.

One last thought:

The hallmark of those firmly and recalcitrantly mired in schism and dissent is disproportionate anger, bitterness, and vitriol.

An objective observer, not knowing whether the schismatic or orthodox Catholic debator is correct, should at least find a firm clue in the kind, patient, charitable witness of the orthodox Catholic in comparison to the hallmark anger, bitternes, and vitriol of the schismatic.

When the debating tactics of the orthodox Catholic apologist are no different than the anger, bitternes, and vitriol of the schismatic apologist, and the sarcastic and cynical remarks outwiegh those done with patience and charity, something is seriously wrong with the approach of the orthodox Catholic apologist (at a minimum.)

The peace and love of Christ must shine through in the posts of a stable, orthodox Catholic apologist

1 posted on 7/30/02 1:54 PM Eastern by Polycarp
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To: patent; Siobhan; sitetest; JMJ333; narses; Catholicguy; *Catholic_list; Notwithstanding; ...

I would appreciate some input and discussion among the orthodox Catholic Caucus regarding these thoughts here.

It might help bring us back together and unite to fight the current problems in the Church.

A reminder:

The current scandal in the Church is homosexual predatory abuse of teenage boys by priests.

Many of the guilty priests were ordained before Vatican II and the Novus Ordo mass.

Discussion of the post-conciliar Church and its merits and problems is important, but the sexual immorality of the present age began before 1960.

2 posted on 7/30/02 1:58 PM Eastern by Polycarp
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Thank you Polycarp. This is a valuable, validating, and timely contribution. One thing that stands out for me, is Mr. Armstrong's optimism and confidence in the church. It is my hope that others can find their way to share in that eternal truth. Pax et bonum.

Where are posts 3-5??

I see those posts on my own screen, numbers 3-5. Do you? Try the Refresh button. If that does not work, try holding down the shift key while refreshing. If it still does not display, please let me know.

I see. Your post #5 ended with a pasted post#2 at the end of the post. So it looks like it skips from 2 to 6.

Thank you. The answers to point 13 are essentially the answers I give to those who see the current, grave crisis the hurch faces. The Church HAS been infiltrated by Her enemies, She has been harmed by those both with evil intent and by those with good intentions and bad formation. She, Herself, will survive. My concern is for the souls lost during the crisis.

Standing around as a cheerleader might make you feel good and sleep better at night, but in the meantime millions of souls may be going to Hell because of this massive loss of the faith.

Your pessimism has no place here. In addition, your appalling lack of faith in the Hound of Heaven, who draws all men to Himself and who desires their salvation, shows how shallow your faith is.

God's ways are not yours, no matter how many souls you delight in consigning to hell.

Will this settle arguments or spearhead new ones? Much of this is over my head, but I am learning a lot.

It will spearhead new ones because some people greet truth like a vampire greets a crucifix.

The relationship one is supposed to have with the church is like a marriage. It doesn't have to be creative, brilliant or insightful, although these are certainly bonuses. No the only thing that is required of our relationship with the Church is love and fidelity. These people are neither loving or faithful. They are no different from your average run of the mill heretic who hates eveyone and everything.

Dear Polycarp,

You forgot my addition to number 6:

"6) Denying the Novus Ordo is valid and licit or that Pope Paul VI had the authority to promulgate it does make one schismatic."

Ought to be: "6) Denying the Novus Ordo is valid and licit, and entirely orthodox and Catholic or that Pope Paul VI had the authority to promulgate it does make one schismatic."

Fortunately, I've been patronized by far better men than you.

I'm simply not impressed by your knowledge of the problem, your wisdom in addressing it, or your overall approach.

Mea culpa.

ping...