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So, on this one, I part company with you, my friend. Why not use that fine Asbury background of yours and post some great biblical teaching on the 'second blessing' and the holy life and really send the construct defenders rushing down the hill into the sea?

Winston, you are a breath of fresh air. And you have the audacity (freedom) to go public with a disagreement with a friend. LOL. Don't you worry about the repercussions if others think we can disagree on some things and agree on others? They might think that we ACTUALLY believe in free will.

Now, to your argument. I do think that premillenialism has a stronger case than does amillenialism.

In premillenialism one has essentially the problem of putting together all the pieces of a vast puzzle/treasure of prophetic utterances found in the bible. That is no small task and it presents great difficulty. In short, I do it because in my reading of the Bible the prophecies given before Christ had a literal fulfillment (a real virgin, a real Bethlehem, etc.) EVEN IF presaged by a symbolic passage. (EG; Nebuchadnezzar's statue with head of gold, shoulders of silver, etc. That symbolic statue was fulfilled in literal kingdoms and persons.)

Amillenialism, on the other hand, has these weaknesses. First, it is contrary to the testimony of the early church. Read post #9 and that is abundantly clear. Second, once one accepts amillenialism's view that fulfillments can be "spiritual/symbolic" then anything goes. Anything can be right and anything can be wrong. Third, amillenialism says that NOW is that peaceful kingdom of God....(When the moon is in the 7th house, and Jupiter aligns with Mars, and we survive our planet and love will rule the stars...Aquarius, aquarius, harmony and understanding...)

To say Satan is bound and that this is the era of peace is simply absurd. Beware when they say "peace, peace, when there is no peace."

So, then, as a premillenialist I'm left trying to explain how all these prophetic pieces fits together, AND amillenialists are left trying to explain how this Jeffrey Dahmer, Osama Bin Laden, David Westerfield PEACE fits together. (piece and peace...get it?)

I'll stick with fitting prophetic puzzles together. The other guys simply can't sell (to me anyway) what they're trying to push.

This is from the Scofield notes:

The two Advents--Summary:

(1) The O.T. foreview of the coming Messiah is in two aspects--that of rejection and suffering (as e.g. in Is 53), and that of earthly glory and power (as e.g. In Is 11 Jer 23 Eze 37). Often these two aspects blend in one passage (e.g. Ps 2). The prophets themselves were perplexed by this seeming contradiction 1 Peter 1:10,11. It was solved by partial fulfilment. In due time the Messiah, born of a virgin according to Isaiah, appeared among men and began His ministry by announcing the predicted kingdom as "at hand."

(See Scofield "Matthew 4:17") . The rejection of King and kingdom followed.

(2) Thereupon the rejected King announced His approaching crucifixion, resurrection, departure, and return (Mat. 24., 25). Matthew 12:38-40; 16:1-4,21,27; Luke 12:35-46; 17:20-36 ; 18:31-34; 19:12-27.

(3) He uttered predictions concerning the course of events between His departure and return Matthew 13:1-50; 16:18; 24:4-26

(4) This promised return of Christ becomes a prominent theme in the Acts, Epistles, and Revelation.

Taken together, the N.T. teachings concerning the return of Jesus Christ may be summarized as follows:

(1) That return is an event, not a process, and is personal and corporeal Matthew 23:39; 24:30; 25:31; Mark 14:62; Luke 17:24; John 14:3; Acts 1:11; Philippians 3:20,21; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.

(2) His coming has a threefold relation: to the church, to Israel, to the nations.

(a) To the church the descent of the Lord into the air to raise the sleeping and change the living saints is set forth as a constant expectation and hope Matthew 24:36,44,48-51; 25:13; 1 Corinthians 15:51,52; Philippians 3:20; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 4:14-17; 1 Timothy 6:14; Titus 2:13; Revelation 22:20.

(b) To Israel, the return of the Lord is predicted to accomplish the yet unfulfilled prophecies of her national regathering, conversion, and establishment in peace and power under the Davidic Covenant Acts 15:14-17 with Zechariah 14:1-9.

"Amillenialism, on the other hand, has these weaknesses. First, it is contrary to the testimony of the early church. Read post #9 and that is abundantly clear."

Correction: "...it is contrary to the testimony of [part of] the early church..." Historic/Classical (Non-dispensational) Pre-Millenialism was ~not~ the only postion and arguably was ~not~ even the majority position (but again, the majority position is not ~necessarily~ the correct position -so that is irrelevant).

"Second, once one accepts amillenialism's view that fulfillments can be "spiritual/symbolic" then anything goes. Anything can be right and anything can be wrong."

Correction: Amillenialism does ~not~ 'view that fulfillments can be "spiritual/symbolic"'. Amillenialism views the '1000' years as symbolic, yes, but you just admitted that the interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's statue was 'symbolic'. If Nebuchadnezzar's statue can be a 'symbolic' representation in the prophecy, why cannot the '1000' years? So, how come you guys get to interpret certain aspects of phrophecy 'symbolically' and it's OK, but when Amillenialists do so, it is a 'bad bad' thing?

No, x, Amillenialims most assuredly believes the fulfillment of the millenial prophecy is ~REAL~. It just disagrees with the interpretation of the prophecy.

Question: Is fulfillment of prophecy in the Spiritual ~Realm~ any less real then fulfillment in the Physical ~Realm~? Another way to put it, is the Spiritual ~Realm~ any less real than the Physical ~Realm~?

"Third, amillenialism says that NOW is that peaceful kingdom of God...."

So does Jesus:

Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

So does John the Baptist:

Mark 1:
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

"To say Satan is bound and that this is the era of peace is simply absurd"

x, Jesus plainly declares Satan bound! I showed you the scripture. Why is that not good enough for you?

Furthermore, where does Rev 20 declare that there will be an 'era of peace' during Satan's binding? It simply says Satan will be bound so he can decieve the nations no more. It says nothing more and nothing less. And we know that soon after Christ's accomplishment on the cross and for the first time in history, the gospel spread out into the world (the nations) like wild fire! Coincidence?...I think not!

Jean