It Was Us Against Them: Does Mahony Want A Priestless Church?

Los Angeles Lay Catholic Mission ^ | March, 2001 | Robert Kumpel

[american colleen]

...Another great saint who lived in a tremendously difficult time can help us further. The great St. Francis of Assisi lived in the 1200s, which was a time of terrible immorality in central Italy. Priests were setting horrible example. Lay immorality was even worse. St. Francis himself while a young man even gave some scandal to others by his carefree ways. But eventually he was converted back to the Lord, founded the Franciscans, helped God rebuild his Church and became one of the great saints of all time.

Once one of the brothers in the Order of Friars Minor asked him a question. The brother was very sensitive to scandals. "Br. Francis," he said, "What would you do if you knew that the priest celebrating Mass had three concubines on the side?" Francis, without missing a beat, said slowly, "When it came time for Holy Communion, I would go to receive the Sacred Body of my Lord from the priest's anointed hands."

What was Francis getting at? He was getting at a tremendous truth of the faith and a tremendous gift of the Lord. No matter how sinful a priest is, provided that he has the intention to do what the Church does — at Mass, for example, to change bread and wine into Christ's body and blood, or in confession, no matter how sinful he is personally, to forgive the penitent's sins — Christ himself acts through that minister in the sacraments.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

He did what??? The apostles never called themselves Priests. Jesus never called them Priests. They never offered sacrificed like the Jewish Priests of the time or the Catholic Priests of our time.

You base those statements on what, your interpretation of Scripture? Spend some time reading Acts and Hebrews and John and do tell, since you claim to know, what it is that Christ did and said that John mentions is not written in Scripture.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

I think you are going overboard.

You can think what you want but this individual is embracing heresy and that's a fact. After being called "Chief Inquisitor, clueless, rude, unChristian, little pea brain" and being accused of "casting stones" for pointing it out, I really don't care if you or anyone else thinks I'm overboard in defending Christ.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

I didn't neglect anything. Since you want to engage in linguistic literalism can you tell me where I can find the words Incarnation, Trinity and Bible in Scripture? If the Apostles weren't priests as you contend how could they then ordain priests themselves?

[NYer]

He has to be a persuasive, back-stabbing so and so who can talk himself in and out of any argument or situation at will.

And to think that Mahony was once considered "papabile"! (the rumor was probably begun by Mahony himself.)

[RobbyS]

a secular analogy points up the doctrine of the Church: a judge, no matter how corrupt, has the power to apply the law.

[Loyalist]

The more a cleric speaks of the "fruits of Vatican II", the more likely that he is one.

[RobbyS]

From what I read about his obsession with building his ugly new Cathedral, I must say that Mahony suffers from the "ediface complex" that has afflects so many clerics. Unlikely to be remembered as saints, they want their names/features carved into stone.

[Catholicguy]

From what I read about his obsession with building his ugly new Cathedral, I must say that Mahony suffers from the "ediface complex" that has afflects so many clerics. Unlikely to be remembered as saints, they want their names/features carved into stone

<> Yep. It would have been so much better had Card. Mahony imitated Caravaggio who, in painting the severed head of St. John the Baptist, made it a self-portrait. Beautiful and spiritually subtle. Now, that was humility and a far cry from Caravaggio's earlier self-portrait as Bacchus.<>

[nickcarraway]

Please tell me where it says that any Catholic is required to take a sacrament from a certain priest or that they can't be repulsed by a priest's actions. the sacrament may be valid, but it is not mandatory to recieve the sacrament from that priest.

[sitetest]

Dear nickcarrawy,

"Please tell me where it says that any Catholic is required to take a sacrament from a certain priest or that they can't be repulsed by a priest's actions. the sacrament may be valid, but it is not mandatory to recieve the sacrament from that priest."

That isn't what Smedleybutler initially responded to from goldenstategirl. Here is what she originally said:

"#2 - I've have heard that the Sacraments are valid even when the priest is not the most holy person. Personally, I have a difficult time believing this. A corrupt priest would be a dirty container for the Spirit. How could the Holy Spirit act or reside there? I think a priest/Saint's abilities are directly related to their own purity. I will only go to Mass and take Sacraments from a priest I respect and know to be a good person, but that's just me."[Emphasis added]

Smedleybutler replied:

"Your position is known as the Donatist heresy..."

Smedleybutler is right to say that if one doesn't accept that the sacrament is valid, whether or not the minister of the sacrament is worthy or unworthy, that one has wandered off into Donatism.

If she had initially said, "I know that the sacrament is valid, even if the priest is a scumbag, but personally, I avoid taking Communion from a scumbag priest," then she would not be edging into Donatism.

But that isn't what she said.

And after Smedleybutler politely pointed out her error, she came back with:

"'Your position is known as the Donatist heresy'

"What complete and utter BS. Anyone who refuses to associate with a hypocrite is a heretic? Why even bother posting here anymore? It seems there is an Inquisition live and well here which seeks out anyone who refuses to blind themselves and fall in line. Disgusting."

After that, Smedleybutler seemed to be more annoyed. I wonder why.

Sorry, Smedleybutler's right on this one. Goldenstategirl's initial post at #15 evinces Donatism. Smedleybutler pointed it out in a gracious, polite manner.

sitetest

[TotusTuus]

I think you are going overboard. I don't see why she is obligated to take sacraments from a particular priests.

I didn't see where Smedley, (aka "pea brain") said this. He was just correcting an incorrect, no make that heretical, understanding of the faith by goldie. Christ is the Priest who works through His ministering priests to effect His Grace in the Sacraments. Goldie, we all want holy priests, but yes, as a matter of fact, the Holy Spirit CAN work through evil, sinful, even wicked priests to give Grace to the recipients of His Sacraments. If you have a choice and don't want to receive the sacraments from a particular priest preferring another one over him, fine. Just don't deny the validity or efficacy of the Sacraments coming from any priest, even a wicked one. Please read Smedley's posts' to you more carefully - he's trying to help you! Heresy is no small matter, and this particular one so sad, since, as Smedley pointed out, it was dealt with by St. Augustine so many centuries before.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

You can all just end the piling on right now. I've requested the moderator remove my account. I didn't realize the extent of the hateful, holier than thou posters we have. It's incredible. I don't want to be associated with people like you who don't bother to ask me to clarify my remarks but just jump on a person like vultures on a kill. Several of you are nothing short of channeling the devil.

[TotusTuus]

Sometimes these threads scare me

[nickcarraway]

Well I'm glad you brought this up. Don't you think before you come out and brand a person a heretic, you have to at least discuss the issue with them. Calling a person a heretic on the basis of one post? It's just irresponsible. Heresy is a very serious charges. Both of you obviously don't understand all the conditions and history therein.

[sitetest]

Yeah, me too.

[sitetest]

Dear nickcarraway,

Some things are hard to figure out.

Others aren't.

"Don't you think before you come out and brand a person a heretic, you have to at least discuss the issue with them."

Smedleybutler didn't initially call goldenstategirl a heretic. He said her position was the Donatist heresy.

It is. It isn't a tough call. To say this:

"#2 - I've have heard that the Sacraments are valid even when the priest is not the most holy person. Personally, I have a difficult time believing this."

Is to say precisely what is the Donatist position.

That doesn't make her a formal heretic. Not even a material heretic, necessarily. But, of course, that isn't what Smedleybutler initially said to her.

He said that her position was Donatism. It is.

And she might have responded, on reflection, by saying something like, "Gee, I mispoke." or, "How so?"

Or, she might have done something really radical like read the article at the link, and then she might have said something like, "I didn't realize that this is what the Churh taught." or "Gee, thanks, I learned something valuable today."

Instead, she said, "What complete and utter BS."

And it deteriorated from there.

If you would like to scold Smedleybutler for getting down in the mud after goldenstategirl yanked him down with her inro it, have at it. That's another argument.

But his initial post had several very nice attributes: it was succinct; gracious; informative; and most important, TRUE.


sitetest

[nickcarraway]

Personally, I have a difficult time believing this

Well, it's great that you have perfect faith. Most human beings don't. Expressing some doubt, like this, is a condition of being human. She was expressing these doubts, not teaching with certainty a theological concept.

If you've read about Mother Theresa, you'll know of the deep spiritual trials and doubts she went through. Besides her, many, if not most saints, had similar problems. Calling someone a heretic in such a case isn't a very Christian way to help.

BUT PLEASE, AT LEAST BE INTELLECTUALLY HONEST AND CONSISTENT: IF YOU'RE GOING TO CALL HER A HERETIC, GO ON AND CALL MOTHER THERESA AND THE OTHER SAINTS HERETICS TO!

[nickcarraway]

Let me ask you one question: Our Holy Father, John Paul II, overheard her say that, what do you think his response would be? If you think it would be like yours, then you don't know much about our Holy Father. Do you really think you think you are better than him? Why act that way?

[St.Chuck]

I've requested the moderator remove my account.

Hey, I've observed others being banned, but never before a self-banishment. Wouldn't that be akin to virtual suicide? :)