Posted on 11/14/2002 3:13:31 PM PST by The Grammarian
Have you ever prayed for God to soften someones heart or open their eyes to the gospel?
Almost constantly. I've never taken these in a sense corresponding to violating someone's free agency, though.
Well Gram,you may not have considered it as such , but it most surely is!
If the man is happy in his current state and freely chooses his current state , you are asking God to interfer with that man's free will choice . You are asking God to act in a man that does not freely choose to want him to be there or to act. You are asking God to change what that man wants..thus you interfer with that mans free will..you had best not do that again IF you want to be consistant
Not really.
If the man is happy in his current state and freely chooses his current state , you are asking God to interfer [sic] with that man's free will choice . You are asking God to act in a man that does not freely choose to want him to be there or to act. You are asking God to change what that man wants..thus you interfer with that mans free will..you had best not do that again IF you want to be consistant.
Actually, I am asking God to graciously affect their agency such that they have a truly free choice in the matter.
Actually Gram you are seeking as a man to interfer with their free will choice to remain unsaved..and you are asking God to do that work FOR YOU at your request
" I am asking God to graciously affect their agency such that they have a truly free choice in the matter."
You seek to make both God and the man act as you will not as THEY will
Those of us that believe God is really sovereign over all matters would say
God graciously acts to affect their agency in such a way such that they have a truly free choice in the matter.
You seem to think it is ok for you to pick the target where Gods grace should be sent to affect their will..but if does it He is making man a pupppet .
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Are you the potters foreman?:>)..You do need to stop praying like that if you REALLY believe that free agency is a right
You're wrong there. I don't pray as if reciting a "shopping list" or as if I were attempting to manipulate God to do as I wish. I pray to help reinforce my own conception of what God wants done. Since I believe the Bible when it says "[God] willeth that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth," that means that I pray for God to "interfere" in others' lives that they may receive the grace that I know God wants to give them.
You seek to make both God and the man act as you will not as THEY will.
I seek to bring my own purposes into alignment with God's own, and to pray for others' salvation.
Those of us that believe God is really sovereign over all matters would say "God graciously acts to affect their agency in such a way such that they have a truly free choice in the matter."
No, actually, I chose the word 'affect their agency' specifically for a reason. "Affect" is to influence. "Effect" is to irresistibly necessitate change. I pray for God to affect their agency; you and those that think that they believe "God is really sovereign" pray for God to effect a change in man's agency.
You seem to think it is ok for you to pick the target where Gods grace should be sent to affect their will..but if does it He is making man a pupppet [sic].
Nope, I only "pick the target where Gods [sic] grace should be sent," etc., because I believe that that aligns with God's purposes. I pray for those around me because God has placed them there.
Rom 9:21 "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" Are you the potters foreman?:>)..You do need to stop praying like that if you REALLY believe that free agency is a right
I love out-of-context proof-texting, don't you?
You are asking God to interfer with the free will of another man..IF YOU REALLY believed in Free will, you would NEVER ask God to compromise that free will by His intervention.(thats what free will means..FREE of ALL intervention).If God REALLY wants all men without exception saved he is doing a poor job wouldn't you say? He is really quite hapless it seems
But that is all beside the point ..Gram you have NO RIGHT to ask God to give special grace to one man over another and to compromise his free will in the process ..so cut it out!
Many words in the post to try to cover up the fact you have the nerve to say God interfering makes men puppets EXCEPT if He is doing YOUR will then it is a gracious intervention..Bologna...you want it both ways..get consistant and stop those prayers NOW .Your prayer is simply your attempt to manipulate God and the will of others..
Actually, "free will," properly, means simply that we desire what we desire. Free agency doesn't mean "free of all intervention," it is free from being necessitated to act by any outside source.
Many words in the post to try to cover up the fact you have the nerve to say God interfering makes men puppets EXCEPT if He is doing YOUR will then it is a gracious intervention..Bologna...you want it both ways..get consistant and stop those prayers NOW .Your prayer is simply your attempt to manipulate God and the will of others..
No, God "interfering" only makes men puppets if God "effects" changes; God influencing men does not make them puppets.
I don't believe God "decrees" any destiny for any individual man. I do believe that God "changes his mind," as with the case in the Pentateuch where Moses pleads with God to spare the Jewish people, and I do believe God foreknows all outcomes. "There is nothing hidden from his eye."
So you use free agency as a different discriptuon than free will?
When I said before that our free will was shaped by our preferences ..you had a fit..Yet here you seem to be saying the same thing.
So free agency CAN be interfered with that is OK?..So If God changed our preferences so that our will would be to Him ...and then He acted as an outside force on our free agency ,that would be OK with you?
Many words in the post to try to cover up the fact you have the nerve to say God interfering makes men puppets EXCEPT if He is doing YOUR will then it is a gracious intervention..Bologna...you want it both ways..get consistant and stop those prayers NOW .Your prayer is simply your attempt to manipulate God and the will of others..
No, God "interfering" only makes men puppets if God "effects" changes; God influencing men does not make them puppets.
So you believe that your prayer is meaningless because even if God hears it and responds He is hapless to make it effective? Why do you pray again?
Yes, properly speaking, there is a difference. Ralston elaborates that in the original "Moral Agency of Man" thread.
When I said before that our free will was shaped by our preferences ..you had a fit..Yet here you seem to be saying the same thing.
Actually, if you note, everything I said was directed at "free agency." "Free will" is, as Ralston puts it,
In entering upon the discussion of the question of free agency, it is important, in the first place, not only to ascertain clearly the precise matter of dispute, but also to understand the peculiar sense in which any ambiguous terms which custom may have employed in the controversy are used. In addition to the definitions and general principles already presented, we think it necessary to premise a few things relative to certain terms in general use by writers on this subject. First, we remark, in reference to the term free will, that it is not philosophically accurate. Strictly speaking, the will is not an agent, but only an attribute or property of an agent; and, of course, freedom, which is also the property of an agent, cannot be properly predicated of the will.
So free agency CAN be interfered with that is OK?..So If God changed our preferences so that our will would be to Him ...and then He acted as an outside force on our free agency ,that would be OK with you?
Huh? If God irresistibly changed our 'preferences,' that would be necessitating our change. That, in and of itself, would be a stripping away of man's free agency.
So you believe that your prayer is meaningless because even if God hears it and responds He is hapless to make it effective? Why do you pray again?
I believe my prayers are meaningful, but not because they change, or are intended to change, God's plans. I never said God was helpless to make my prayers effective; I said that I don't come to prayer with the attitude that I am directing God to manipulate and control my surroundings, but to bring myself closer to him and his purposes.
I can't help it that you don't understand what I'm saying.
You pray for God to act on that mans will..soften his heart or open his eyes however you want to word it...But if God decided to act without your help or permission you say He makes man a puppet..
You're missing the point again. If God influences/'affects' man's actions, man is still a free moral agent, though influenced. If God necessitates/'effects' man's actions, however, it means that man is a marionette, a puppet whose strings are pulled in all things in order to create reactions. My help or permission has nothing to do with it.
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