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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Gah! You triple-posted on me!

I don't have the use of a copy/paste function, so keep that in mind. I just realized something a while ago--that split infinitive I was talking about was actually me ending a sentence with a preposition. (Doh!)

I fail to see how the statement that President Edwards "contends that man is a free moral agent because he may do as he wills, when his will is as unalterably fixed by necessity as the pillars of heaven" is an error. How would the fact that man may 'will as he will' make him free? As to the second objection you have, I believe Ralston is using the term 'foreknowledge' in the proper sense of prescience, which isn't causative. That would be the realm of God's omnipotence.

Finally, as to the Hammer of Augustine, how does God's foreknowledge of events imply causation of said events? In other words, God foreknew that people would repent if he performed miracles in Chorazin, Bethsaida, Tyre, and Sidon; but does that mean that his foreknowledge was the cause? At the very least, Matt. 11 does not touch the issue. It simply states that God foreknew what would happen--not that his foreknowledge caused it to be so.

4 posted on 11/15/2002 8:27:20 AM PST by The Grammarian
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To: The Grammarian
I fail to see how the statement that President Edwards "contends that man is a free moral agent because he may do as he wills, when his will is as unalterably fixed by necessity as the pillars of heaven" is an error. How would the fact that man may 'will as he will' make him free?

A Man is Free when he may Will to do what he Wants to do. He is not Free if he is compelled to Will that which he does not Want (slavery), or if his Will is divorced from his Wants (intoxication, demonic possession, etc.).

As to the second objection you have, I believe Ralston is using the term 'foreknowledge' in the proper sense of prescience, which isn't causative. That would be the realm of God's omnipotence. Finally, as to the Hammer of Augustine, how does God's foreknowledge of events imply causation of said events? In other words, God foreknew that people would repent if he performed miracles in Chorazin, Bethsaida, Tyre, and Sidon; but does that mean that his foreknowledge was the cause? At the very least, Matt. 11 does not touch the issue. It simply states that God foreknew what would happen--not that his foreknowledge caused it to be so.

I don't think that you ever noticed what Jesus is saying here. I think that you still aren't noticing it.

The point is that, when God foreknows what a Man will choose in a logically dependent response to one possible Divine Election of Action, and God foreknows what a Man will choose differently in a logically dependent response to a different Divine Election of Action, then it is precisely God's Election which determines WHAT a Man will choose.

With this in mind, look at Matthew 11 once again:


QUESTION:

True, or False?


How can Ralston possibly maintain the idiocy that "the taking place of the event is the cause of God having foreknown it", when it is precisely the Election of God which DETERMINES what the "taking place of the event" (Man's Choice) SHALL BE???

Ralston would make the Foreknowledge of God a hostage to the Decisions of Man.
But it is the Election of God which determines what the Decisions of Man SHALL BE.

5 posted on 11/16/2002 1:31:29 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: The Grammarian; RnMomof7; the_doc
As to the second objection you have, I believe Ralston is using the term 'foreknowledge' in the proper sense of prescience, which isn't causative. That would be the realm of God's omnipotence.

There's a logically-antecedent factor in Foreknowledge which you aren't even considering -- God's perfect foreknowledge of the different outcomes (including different Choices) which will result from different exercises of Omnipotence on His part.

Since the different outcomes foreknown by this antecedent Prescience (God's pre-creative Foreknowledge of all Creative potentialities) include different choices of men made in logically dependent response to different elections of Divine action (see #5), we must correctly state that the Election of God pre-determines what the Decisions of Man SHALL BE.

This isn't that hard, Gram. Think about the point that is being made.

6 posted on 11/16/2002 1:44:15 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: The Grammarian
If God foreknows an event ,and that event ,or portions of it are within his power to change..is it forknowlege or predestination?
7 posted on 11/16/2002 2:09:22 PM PST by RnMomof7
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