Hail Mom!
Posted on 11/18/2002 8:34:02 AM PST by pseudo-justin
Besides, Augustine accepted the perpetual Virginity of Mary. Was he contradicting himself by holding both Sola Scriptura and that Mary was ever Virgin?
Hail Mom!
I asked you for proof that your position is true. You've asked me for lots of info about what I believe.
Highlight some facts that are incontrovertible.
My heart is always gladdened when I witness a fellow Catholic witnessing so well...<>
Words, words, words. Without meaning, but words nevertheless. Do you get paid by the word?
Just because you do not understand, does not mean there is no meaning there. If I thought it would do any good, I would entertain your questions on this difficult passage I just wrote. But since you show no desire to learn, what is the point?
SD
But it is not so. It is a mistranslation, done because of a deliberate worldview that needs to deny what the Church says.
You can not escape the fact that you do not know Greek, so you can not know what is meant, except for leaning on fallible men to tell you.
What if they are wrong?
And Sola Scriptura disappears in a puff of smoke.
SD
I see hanging out with the Calvinists has really helped you to grow in love.
SD
You can not escape the fact that you do not know Greek, so you can not know what is meant, except for leaning on fallible men to tell you ...... with the aid of the Holy Spirit.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being [yet] present with you.
26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
... with the aid of the Holy Spirit.
Wow! So when you got born again, all of a sudden you knew how to speak Greek?
That's literally incredible.
I have just one question. When another professed "Christian" disagrees with you, is it cause he isn't really being led by the Holy Spirit to truth? Or is it cause one or both of you are displaying your fallibility?
SD
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"...since it is unanimous consent of the Fathers that matters,..." What a joke. Do you have a particularly "Catholic" definition of "Unanimous"?
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Besides, Augustine accepted the perpetual Virginity of Mary. Was he contradicting himself by holding both Sola Scriptura and that Mary was ever Virgin?
Besides, besides, besides. This is not an argument.
You feel you can pick and choose from the writings of the Church Fathers because of a self defined "authority" of the RCC. Be my guest. When all else fails resort to the "authority" ploy.
There is one simple question I asked on Post #341 which you seem to have overlooked however. Even my simple mind would be able to comprehend, I believe- that is - maybe - possibly. Well, in any event, let's try one more time.
#341
(SD) Yes, of course. Except that Stephen got this grace through Baptism and the coming of the Holy Spirit, after being born in the normal state. This was all after the Crucifixion, of course.
(OR) Please show me Scripture where Stephen received his "grace" through Baptism.
Wow! So when you got born again, all of a sudden you knew how to speak Greek?No, ... but the Spirit does, ... and, even better than that, the Spirit knows the EXACT meaning of the passage, and can communicate that meaning to us without using ANY earthly language.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
I have just one question. When another professed "Christian" disagrees with you, is it cause he isn't really being led by the Holy Spirit to truth? Or is it cause one or both of you are displaying your fallibility?
It is often because one (or both) of us is not listening closely enough or purely enough (i.e. without other egocentric agendas distorting the Holy Spirit's message).
Or, perhaps, one (or both) of those disagreeing needs additional spiritual maturity before they would be able to comprehend the truth provided by the Spirit. I believe that the Spirit teaches us only what we are ready to be taught. Perhaps we're not ready to receive the information we desire.
But, you know us. Many time we truly do not know what we think we know. Unfortunately, too often, that doesn't keep us from declaring that which we know not.
I believe that it is much more profitable for us to humbly acknowledge our fallibility, ... to know that what we do know is by the grace of God, ... and to earnestly seek what further the Lord has for us as we grow in His grace.
No, thank you. Even if I were to show Stephen being baptized, you would argue that it doesn't impart any grace. So let's not bother.
SD
And then:
It is often because one (or both) of us is not listening closely enough or purely enough (i.e. without other egocentric agendas distorting the Holy Spirit's message).
So the Spirit can communicate the meaning, but we may not be able to listen well enough?
SD
The basic difficulty with Sola Scriptura is that it takes a certain real truth -- that Christ through the Holy Spirit personally teaches us in dramatic ways the meaning of Scripture for me and my life--and then turns that truth concerning my subjective relationship to the Lord into an ECCLESIOLOGICAL principle about the source of the NORMATIVITY OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINES. From the fact that in a subjective encounter with the Scriptures, the Holy Spirit guides me to understand X, it does not at all follow that X is normative doctrine for all other Christians.So I agree that the Holy Spirit can and does guide individual readers to grasp things from the Scriptures, but I deny that such subjective encounters issue in doctrines that are NORMATIVE for other Christians. What is it that confers normativity for others upon what the Holy Spirit leads you to see? There needs to be an ECCLESIAL guidance as well. The Holy Spirit must guide the Church as a whole in the same way it guides this or that joe.
The Holy Spirit simultaneously guides the the Church Universal, the individual christian, and individual groups of christians. The degrees to which individual christians, christian groups, or the church reflect the teaching of the Holy Spirit derives from the degree that any of these is receptive and obedient to the teaching of the Holy Spirit.
Besides, how do you deal with the following. Either you are infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit or you are fallibly guided. If you say that you are infallibly guided, then you attribute to yourself the very attribute you deny to the Catholic Church. Why should we think that you are infallible? If you are fallibly guided by the Holy Spirit, then certainly what you discover is not normative for others, and we are back to the questions I raised to xzins in the first place.
The Holy Spirit's guidance is infallible. Our receptance and obedience to the guidance of the Holy Spirit is fallible because we are fallible. It is only to the extent that we earnestly seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit (i.e. clear our reception of all interfering agendas) that we clearly receive what the Holy Spirit communicates to us.
Lastly, two people, A and B, both claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit, A says "Scripture says X" and B says "Scripture does not say X" Somebody is getting deceived unless the Holy Spirit is speaking contradictions. Now what should I do? Please don't tell me to pray and study, or we are back to where we started in teh first place.
If two persons, A and B, both claim to be guided by tje Holy Spirit, yet A says "Scripture says X" and B says "Scripture does not say X", there are (2) possibilities. Either one of the two, A or B is mistaken about what the Holy Spirit is saying OR both are mistaken. Any deception or contradiction is on the part of the receiver(s) of what the Spirit is saying.
It is often because one (or both) is not listening closely enough or purely enough (i.e. without other egocentric agendas distorting the Holy Spirit's message).
Or, perhaps, one (or both) of those disagreeing needs additional spiritual maturity before they would be able to comprehend the truth provided by the Spirit. I believe that the Spirit teaches us only what we are ready to be taught. Perhaps we're not ready to receive the information we desire.
But, you know us. Many times, we truly do not know what we think we know. Unfortunately, too often, that doesn't keep us from declaring that which we know not.
I believe that it is much more profitable for us to humbly acknowledge our fallibility, ... to know that what we do know is by the grace of God, ... and to earnestly seek (from God Himself) what further He has for us as we grow in His grace.
James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
(SD) No, thank you. Even if I were to show Stephen being baptized, you would argue that it doesn't impart any grace. So let's not bother.
Your refusal to respond to your dogmatic statement is simply an admission you made it up!
When you make absoloute statements you should be prepared to back them up. You cannot simply assume you won't be called on it.
Are you going to answer the question or are you prepared to admit your statement was made up of whole cloth?
So the Spirit can communicate the meaning, but we may not be able to listen well enough?We may not be able to listen (or understand) well enough (due to spiritual immaturity) OR we may be distorting the Spirit's message in our reception of it, so that it might feed (or protect) our egos, rather than provide us with truth.
James 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.Our call is to grow in His grace, ... to know that what we do know is by His grace, ... and to earnestly seek (from Him) what further He has for us as we grow in His grace.
James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
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