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A comparrision of Calvinism and Arminianism
xwnos.org ^ | unk | unk

Posted on 11/21/2002 2:58:57 PM PST by CCWoody

Introduction

The central issue we want to study tonight is the interplay between God's sovereignty and human choice with regard to salvation. Do humans have free will to believe or reject the gospel? How should we understand the New Testament's statements about election and predestination?

Reminder: Some weeks have more immediate and obvious application than others. This is not one of those weeks . . . However, there is some practical application—like the implications for evangelism.

Doctrinal Overview

Calvinism:

This term is actually a misnomer. Calvin did not emphasize predestination in his Institutes (only 4 chapters). Calvin warned against delving too deeply into this subject (John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, section 1). However, it became the controlling principle in Reformed Theology, expressed by the Synod of Dort in 1618-1619.

Starting point for Calvinist/Reformed theology: God is sovereign and decrees certain things. 

(Isa. 46:10,11) …My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. (11)… What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.

As a result of Adam's sin, people are born in a "depraved" state. This means that although people may do things that are good, they are constitutionally unable to submit themselves to the gospel.

(Rom. 3:11,12)  . . . there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless . . . 

(John 6:44, 65) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.....(65)And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Because of total depravity, salvation is completely dependent on God's choice to bestow it. For his own good reasons, God sovereignly chooses which individuals he will save. "Unconditional" in this context means that there are no conditions that humans must meet, including faith. Faith is a gift of God (Rom. 12:3; Eph. 2:8). If human-generated faith plays a part in salvation, salvation is not entirely by grace.

(Eph. 1:4,5)  He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. (5) In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will . . . 

(1 Pet. 2:8)  . . . they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

(Rom. 9:16,18,22-24)  So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy . . . (18) So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires . . . (22) What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? (23) And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, (24) even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

"Double predestination" (also called reprobation) means that God predestines the elect to heaven, and that he predestines the non-elect to hell (2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 2:8; Jude 4; Rom. 9:22,23).

(John Calvin) "…(God) does not create everyone in the same condition, but ordains eternal life for some and eternal damnation for others." (Cited in Alister McGrath, Christian Theology, p. 396)

Not all Calvinists believe in double predestination. Instead, they follow Augustine's teaching that God is active only in the salvation of the elect, while he is passive with regard to the non-elect.

Christ died for the purpose of saving only the elect. Calvinists infer this from the passages that say that Christ died "for his people" (Matt 1:21; John 10:11,15,26-27; John 15:13; Acts 20:28). Since God sovereignly elected some to salvation, he sent Christ to die only for them. Not all Calvinists hold to limited atonement.

God's grace in salvation includes imparting saving faith to the elect. This grace is irresistible since it does not depend on human will (Rom. 9:16; Jn. 6:37,44,65; 15:16). God causes the elect to believe the gospel (Acts 13:48), even though they may not be aware of this fact.

(Jn. 6:37) All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

(Acts 13:48) When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Because election depends on God, those who are elected cannot lose their salvation (i.e., eternal security). However, the elect will show evidence of their election by continuing to believe in Christ and manifesting good works consistent with salvation (2 Pet. 1:10; Heb. 3:6,14; Col. 1:23). This is the origin of "Lordship Theology" discussed last week.

(2 Pet. 1:10) Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble.

(Heb. 3:6,14) Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end . . . For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.

 

Implications for Evangelism

Positive

Negative

"Since Christ has elected people to salvation, I can persevere in witnessing with the confidence that I will be fruitful." Bill Bright, and many other effective missionaries have been motivated in this way. "If God has already decided who will be saved and irresistibly calls them, does it really matter whether I witness or not?" This was the logic of those who told William Carey, "Sit down, young man! If God wants to save the people in India, he can well do so without your help."

 

Arminianism:

Arminianism is named for Jacob Arminius (1560-1609), a Dutch theologian who strongly objected to the Reformed system described above—especially limited atonement. His position was published posthumously in the Remonstrance of 1610.

Starting point for Arminian theology: God wants all people to be saved.

(2 Pet. 3:9*) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

(1 Tim. 2:4) (God) desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Arminians agree that left to themselves, people are unable to respond to the gospel. However, God in his (prevenient or common) grace has enabled all people to respond to his convicting influence (John 12:32; 16:8)—he has given the gift of faith to everyone.

(Jn. 12:32) "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

(Jn. 16:8) "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment . . . "

(Henry C. Thiessen) "Since mankind is hopelessly dead in trespasses and sins and can do nothing to obtain salvation, God graciously restores to all men sufficient ability to make a choice in the matter of submission to him. This is the salvation-bringing grace of God that has appeared to all men." (Henry C. Thiessen, Introductory Lectures in Systematic Theology [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1949], pp. 344-345).

God's election of people to salvation is conditioned upon their faith response to the gospel (Eph. 1:13; Rom. 3:28). Arminians reject the claim that faith is a work, since faith merely receives the gift that God offers (Rom. 4:4,5; Gal. 2:16).

(Rom. 4:4,5) Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. (5) But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness . . . 

Illustration: Having been handed a million dollar check, the Arminians would not state that it was work for you to go to the bank, endorse it, and to have it deposited into your account.

Both predestination and election are based on God's foreknowledge (presumably) of our decision to trust Christ (1 Pet. 1:1,2*; Rom. 8:29).

(1 Pet. 1:1,2*) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen (2) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure.

(Rom. 8:29) For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;

Christ died for the whole human race. Christ's atonement is therefore sufficient for all people, but effective only for those who believe (Jn. 1:29; 1 Jn. 2:2*; 2 Cor. 5:19; 1 Tim. 4:l0; Heb. 2:9).

(1 Jn. 2:2*) He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

(2 Cor. 5:19) God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

(1 Tim. 4:10) For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Illustration (continued): The above check is sufficient to cover your debt, but you must deposit it to your account.

It is God's will that all people be saved (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9*; Ezek. 18:23). Therefore, God in his grace draws all people to himself (Jn. 12:32; 16:8). But scripture clearly teaches that humans are capable of resisting God's will (Mt. 23:37; Heb. 4:2; Lk. 7:29,30).

(Matt. 23:37) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

(Luke 7:29,30) And when all the people and the tax-gatherers heard this, they acknowledged God's justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. (30) But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

 

Most Arminians do not believe in eternal security.  Like John Wesley, they believe that we can have present experiential assurance of our salvation—but that we could lose our salvation for various reasons.  However, it is neither logically nor biblically necessary for Arminians to reject eternal security. As evidenced by the Remonstrants of 1610, Arminius was undecided on this issue.  In Xenos we hold a moderately Arminian position while also believing in eternal security.

Implications for Evangelism

Positive

Negative

"I am motivated to share my faith because I know that more will be saved if I am faithful as Christ's ambassador." The logic of Arminianism makes it easy for Christians to believe that evangelism is both a privilege and a responsibility. "Evangelism is a heavy burden since my friend's salvation depends on my witness." Arminians need to be careful to fully emphasize God's will and non-Christians' responsibility as they evangelize. Unless we remember this, we can become unhealthily anxious, taking on more responsibility for people's salvation than is rightfully ours.

Passages Arminians Must Harmonize

The following passages are interpreted differently by Calvinists and Arminians. We believe that the passages teaching the Arminian position are clearer, and that it is easier to harmonize the following passages with this position than it is to harmonize passages supporting Arminianism with the Calvinistic perspective.

(Jn. 6:37)   "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

Calvinists argue that this passage teaches irresistible grace. The individual cannot refuse God's choice. Therefore, all those given to Christ will respond.

Arminians reply that "those given to me" in vs. 37 are the same as those who "believe in him" in vs. 40. In other words, when God foresees that some will believe, he gives them to Christ. See that in vs. 45, those who have "heard and learned from the Father" are the ones who "come to me."

(Jn. 6:44,65) "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" . . .(65) And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Calvinists usually hold that these passages teach total depravity and unconditional election, and also imply limited atonement and double-predestination. This is because:

"no one can come to me unless. . ." because they are totally depraved.

". . .it has been granted him from the Father," or ". . .the Father draws him," meaning unconditional election. Unconditional in this case, because the cause is the Father, not the individual.

Limited atonement and double-predestination are usually inferred from the fact that it is impossible to come to Christ without election. Therefore, those whom the Father has not drawn are naturally destined for judgment and are therefore those for whom Christ did not die.

Arminians agrees that these passages teach total depravity. However, they argue the Father draws all men to Christ (Jn. 12:32; 16:8).

They further hold that to assign the cause exclusively to the Father ignores vss. 29,35,40,47. To attribute the cause exclusively to the Father regardless of the response of the person flies in the face of the stated will of the Father in vs. 40 that "every one who beholds the Son and believes in him" be saved.

Finally, with regard to limited atonement and double-predestination, these are positions which depend on the earlier conclusion (unconditional election), and therefore beg the question.

(Jn. 15:16) "You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you."

Some Calvinists view this passage as a proof text for unconditional election, emphasizing the irrelevance of human choice.

Arminians point out that the statement is made to the disciples with reference to their apostleship, not to their salvation. This interpretation accords well with the next phrase "that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain. . ." See also Jn. 6:70 referring to the same choice. Clearly, Judas was chosen, but not saved.

(Acts 13:48)  And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Calvinists hold that this teaches unconditional election.

Arminians point out that the participle translated "had been appointed to" (tetagmenoi) is the middle-passive voice form of tasso.

In Greek, the same form is used to designate both the middle voice and the passive voice. The NASB translates it in the passive voice (the subject receives the action). However, if it is translated in the middle voice (the subject initiates the action), the passage would read ". . .as many as set themselves to eternal life believed." This translation resolves the difficulty.

The context (see vs 46) indicates that Luke intended the middle voice in verse 48. In vs. 46, Paul says of the Jews, "…you repudiate it (the gospel), and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life." Luke is purposefully contrasting the Jews' response to that of the Gentiles, who "began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had set themselves to eternal life believed."

Because of this grammatical ambiguity, neither view should base its position on this passage.

(Rom. 9:1-24)

Calvinists normally hold that Rom. 9 teaches unconditional election and double-predestination.

Vs. 16 ". . It [God's choice] does not depend on the man who wills. . ."

Vs. 18 refers to double-predestination.

Vss. 22,23 refer to "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" and "vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory."

Vs. 24: The election involved is not a national election because vs. 24 states that the vessels of mercy are "us, whom he called not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles" (i.e., believing Christians).

Arminians argue that the first part of Rom. 9 deals with God's choice of nations and their roles in his plans.

Vss. 1-5 make it clear that the context is that of national choice.

Vss.  6,7: This is confirmed in vss. 6,7 because all Israelites were not saved, and all Ishmaelites were not damned.

Vs. 13: Paul cites Mal. 1:2, in which God says that he favors the nation of Israel over the nation of Edom. Furthermore, the phrase "I hate/I love" is a Hebrew idiom meaning "I do not favor/I favor" (see Luke 14:26-hate father and mother).

Vs. 16 refers to God's choice of how to lead the nation of Israel through the wilderness, which was independent of Moses' will in the matter. Personal salvation is not in view in the original passage (Ex. 33:19).

Vs. 18 is in the context of vs. 16 (see above) and vs. 17, which refers to God's temporal destruction of the Egyptians when they wanted to destroy Israel. The verse teaches that God caused his choice of Israel to stand regardless of Moses' attempts to help or Pharaoh's attempts to hinder. Neither Moses' nor Pharaoh's personal salvation was in view in these passages.

Vss. 21-23 refer to nations which have either a glorious or judgmental role in history. Two interpretations are possible:

God allows evil nations to exist and often uses them to bless the chosen nation Israel. Today, believers are able to participate in the covenant blessings of Israel because they have been "grafted into the rich root" of God's purpose in history.

Another explanation is that the "lump of clay" in vs. 21 refers to national Israel. God has the right to divide Israel into two vessels: unbelieving Israel, which has become a "vessel of wrath prepared ("fit" or "suited") for destruction," and believing Israel which, along with Gentile believers, has become a "vessel of mercy."

Note: Any interpretation of Rom. 9 must account for the transition that Paul makes from national choice in vss. 1-24 and individual salvation in vss. 24-33. Therefore, neither view can claim that the other is completely out of context. The question becomes one of which transition is more believable, and makes the most sense of the Old Testament quotations.

(Gal. 1:15,16) But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood . . .

Calvinists interpret this passage to mean that God irresistibly called Paul because he was elected to salvation. They further argue that Paul's salvation is typical of all Christians in this regard.

Arminians would point out that Paul's election and calling were based on God's foreknowledge of Paul's decision to believe. Some Arminians acknowledge that Paul may have been unconditionally elected and irresistibly called by God, but point out that this does not prove that God deals with all people in this way. There is no reason to think that God cannot deal with some people differently than others. Arminians would argue that the burden is on the Calvinist to demonstrate not just that God elected someone unconditionally, but that he elects all Christians in this way.

(Eph. 1:4,5) . . . just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will . . .

Calvinists cite this passage as teaching unconditional election.

God "chose us. . .before the foundation of the world." He "has predestined us to adoption as sons. . .according to the kind intention of His will." These phrases are taken to mean that God has sovereignly decided in advance who will be saved, completely irrespective of human choice.

Arminians agree that vs. 4 is teaching God's election of the believer to salvation.

However, they call attention to the significance of the phrase "in Him." This phrase, it is argued, means that Christ was the chosen One (Is. 42:1) and that believers corporately participate in his chosenness because they are baptized into him when they believe (1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 1:13).

With regard to vs. 5, Arminians hold that this passage is referring not to God's choice of who will be saved, but of God's choice that those who believe will be ultimately glorified. They interpret "adoption as sons" as a reference to the glorification of believers (cf. Rom. 8:23 for Paul's use of "adoption" in this way).

Arminians also insist that God's election and predestination are based on his foreknowledge of our choice to believe in Christ (1 Pet. 1:1,2*; Rom. 8:29).

(2 Thess. 2:13) But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Calvinists interpret this passage to teach unconditional election.

Arminians point out that "from the beginning" could refer to the beginning of their Christian lives (i.e., conversion). Paul uses this same phrase in Phil. 4:15 to refer to people's conversion. If the term "salvation" refers to glorification (see vs. 14) or spiritual maturity (1 Thess. 5:23), Paul is simply reminding them of God's purpose for their lives.

(1 Pet. 2:8) . . . and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

Some Calvinists find support for double-predestination in this passage. God appointed certain people to "doom" and therefore they rejected Christ.

Arminians point out that the specific cause for their stumbling is not God, but that "they are disobedient to the word." Peter is not saying that God made them disobey, or that they cannot repent. He is simply saying that God has ordained judgment for those who reject the gospel.

 

(Jude 1:4) For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Calvinists hold that this passage teaches double-predestination. The false teachers were "long ago marked out [by God] for. . .condemnation."

Arminians point out that the participle "previously marked out" (progegrammenoi) can also be translated "previously written about." For an example of this usage, see Rom. 15:4. Since Jude goes on to cite several recorded examples of the destruction of ungodly persons (vss. 5-18), this translation is seen as preferable.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: arminianism; calvinism
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Note that this is from an Arminian perspective and the Calvinst doctrine is not in every instance accurate.
1 posted on 11/21/2002 2:58:57 PM PST by CCWoody
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Total Depravity (Total Inability)
Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Calvinism. When Calvinists speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being.

The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5).





Unconditional Election
Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).

This doctrine does not rule out, however, man's responsibility to believe in the redeeming work of God the Son (John 3:16-18). Scripture presents a tension between God's sovereignty in salvation, and man's responsibility to believe which it does not try to resolve. Both are true -- to deny man's responsibility is to affirm an unbiblical hyper-calvinism; to deny God's sovereignty is to affirm an unbiblical Arminianism.

The elect are saved unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). Thus, though good works will never bridge the gulf between man and God that was formed in the Fall, good works are a result of God's saving grace. This is what Peter means when he admonishes the Christian reader to make his "calling" and "election" sure (2 Peter 1:10). Bearing the fruit of good works is an indication that God has sown seeds of grace in fertile soil.





Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption)
Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9). Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:28). Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25).

This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37). Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died!





Irresistible Grace
The result of God's Irresistible Grace is the certain response by the elect to the inward call of the Holy Spirit, when the outward call is given by the evangelist or minister of the Word of God. Christ, himself, teaches that all whom God has elected will come to a knowledge of him (John 6:37). Men come to Christ in salvation when the Father calls them (John 6:44), and the very Spirit of God leads God's beloved to repentance (Romans 8:14). What a comfort it is to know that the gospel of Christ will penetrate our hard, sinful hearts and wondrously save us through the gracious inward call of the Holy Spirit (I Peter 5:10)!





Perseverance of the Saints
Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine which states that the saints (those whom God has saved) will remain in God's hand until they are glorified and brought to abide with him in heaven. Romans 8:28-39 makes it clear that when a person truly has been regenerated by God, he will remain in God's stead. The work of sanctification which God has brought about in his elect will continue until it reaches its fulfillment in eternal life (Phil. 1:6). Christ assures the elect that he will not lose them and that they will be glorified at the "last day" (John 6:39). The Calvinist stands upon the Word of God and trusts in Christ's promise that he will perfectly fulfill the will of the Father in saving all the elect.

2 posted on 11/21/2002 3:05:36 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody; OrthodoxPresbyterian
Calvin did not emphasize predestination in his Institutes (only 4 chapters).

This is pretty misleading. Calvin's treatise Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God is pretty heavy stuff!

(However, lurkers might be interested to realize that the term "Calvinism" came into wide use about 50 years after Calvin's death.)

3 posted on 11/21/2002 3:10:14 PM PST by the_doc
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To: CCWoody
You're absolutely correct about the errors in the article when the author is trying to state the Calvinistic position.

For example, the author said:

Not all Calvinists believe in double predestination. Instead, they follow Augustine's teaching that God is active only in the salvation of the elect, while he is passive with regard to the non-elect.

But Augustine did teach a doctrine of reprobation. He really was a double predestinarian. Augustine pointed out that God definitely considered what it would take to convert non-elect sinners and withheld the effectual means of their conversion specifically because they were not elect.

4 posted on 11/21/2002 3:15:34 PM PST by the_doc
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To: CCWoody
Bump for later reading.....
5 posted on 11/21/2002 3:31:46 PM PST by ksen
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain; TrueBeliever9; Prodigal Daughter; Zadokite; babylonian; ...
Discuss or argue or pretend there is no difference flag:>)
6 posted on 11/21/2002 3:35:59 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: CCWoody
Starting point for Calvinist/Reformed theology: God is sovereign and decrees certain things.

I just started the article. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Calvinists believe that since God is sovereign, He has decreed ALL things?

7 posted on 11/21/2002 3:39:29 PM PST by ksen
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To: ksen
bump for later reading
8 posted on 11/21/2002 3:44:34 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: CCWoody; the_doc
Not all Calvinists believe in double predestination.

If you are going to believe in the Calvinistic doctrine of Predestination you have to believe in double predestination. If some are predestined for Heaven then it follows that the rest MUST be predestined for Hell. There is no middle ground.

9 posted on 11/21/2002 3:48:33 PM PST by ksen
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To: ksen
There is no middle ground.

This is dead right, brother.

10 posted on 11/21/2002 3:55:09 PM PST by the_doc
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To: CCWoody; the_doc
Irresistible Grace

Ezekiel 3:
[18] When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

[19] Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thine soul.(KJV)

Sounds resistable to me.

11 posted on 11/21/2002 3:59:09 PM PST by ksen
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To: ksen
I've thought of this being one act of predestination. But reading these threads, I have a greater understanding of why its double.
12 posted on 11/21/2002 4:10:54 PM PST by Wrigley
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To: ksen
"Sounds resistable to me."

"The wicked" aren't the subject of those two verses. God is warning the "messengers" He sends of what they must do (evangelize). They are the subject.

13 posted on 11/21/2002 4:14:16 PM PST by Matchett-PI
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To: CCWoody; the_doc
Can someone who is totally depraved be aware of their sinful condition?
14 posted on 11/21/2002 4:15:50 PM PST by ksen
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To: Matchett-PI; CCWoody; the_doc
The messenger is being told to warn the wicked. If the messenger does not warn the wicked and the wicked die in their sins then God will hold the messenger at fault.

Now, if the Calvinistic view of Predestination were correct, how on earth can God hold the messenger accountable for the damnation of the reprobate (which He clearly says He will do)?

The messenger is also told that when they warn the wicked some of wicked will respond and some won't. They both receive the same message, and yet some are able to resist.
15 posted on 11/21/2002 4:22:38 PM PST by ksen
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To: ksen
Grace is resistible in the obvious sense that it is sheer grace on the part of God to make an offer.

But the grace which saves is not finally resistible. This is true by definition.

16 posted on 11/21/2002 4:27:11 PM PST by the_doc
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To: CCWoody; the_doc; Matchett-PI; RnMomof7
This doctrine[Unconditional Election] does not rule out, however, man's responsibility to believe in the redeeming work of God the Son (John 3:16-18).

If Unconditional Election is true, then how could Man's responsibility or irresponsibility affect their salvation in any way?

17 posted on 11/21/2002 4:28:49 PM PST by ksen
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To: ksen; Matchett-PI; CCWoody; OrthodoxPresbyterian; RnMomof7
Now, if the Calvinistic view of Predestination were correct...

Wrong use of the subjunctive, brother. Shame on you (ha!).

I'll let the others answer your question. I've got fish to fry.

18 posted on 11/21/2002 4:30:52 PM PST by the_doc
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To: ksen
"They both receive the same message, and yet some are able to resist."

That's because they aren't elect in the first place.

God's messengers have a duty to warn the wicked. That's because some of the wicked are elect and will hear and will turn from their wicked ways.

How will they hear without a preacher?

19 posted on 11/21/2002 4:33:54 PM PST by Matchett-PI
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To: ksen
If you are going to believe in the Calvinistic doctrine of Predestination you have to believe in double predestination.

That is correct..He is God of everything..no accidents

20 posted on 11/21/2002 4:37:11 PM PST by RnMomof7
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