The Institutes Book 1, Chapter 3

The Institutes of the Christian Religion ^ | 1500's | John Calvin

[ksen]

BOOK ONE:
Chapter 1 - THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD AND OF OURSELVES MUTUALLY CONNECTED. - NATURE OF THIS CONNECTION.
Chapter 2 - WHAT IT IS TO KNOW GOD,--TENDENCY OF THIS KNOWLEDGE.

[ksen]

Bump to Chapter 3.

[ksen]

But, as a heathen tells us, there is no nation so barbarous, no race so brutish, as not to be imbued with the conviction that there is a God. Even those who, in other respects, seem to differ least from the lower animals, constantly retain some sense of religion; so thoroughly has this common conviction possessed the mind, so firmly is it stamped on the breasts of all men. Since, then, there never has been, from the very first, any quarter of the globe, any city, any household even, without religion, this amounts to a tacit confession, that a sense of Deity is inscribed on every heart.

Dr. E, I think this quote by Calvin addresses what we were talking about the other day. That Mankind has a sense of God and seeks to express their worship for "him" no matter how crudely.

[RnMomof7]

Bump to #3

Nay, even idolatry is ample evidence of this fact. For we know how reluctant man is to lower himself, in order to set other creatures above him. Therefore, when he chooses to worship wood and stone rather than be thought to have no God, it is evident how very strong this impression of a Deity must be; since it is more difficult to obliterate it from the mind of man, than to break down the feelings of his nature, - these certainly being broken down, when, in opposition to his natural haughtiness, he spontaneously humbles himself before the meanest object as an act of reverence to God.

Wow interesting insight....still reading

[RnMomof7]

It is most absurd, therefore, to maintain, as some do, that religion was devised by the cunning and craft of a few individuals, as a means of keeping the body of the people in due subjection, while there was nothing which those very individuals, while teaching others to worship God, less believed than the existence of a God

How little sinful human nature changes huh? This sounds like the USSR's hatred of religion as the opiet of the masses"

[ksen]

It will be interesting to see how Calvin gets from: "...in opposition to his natural haughtiness, he spontaneously humbles himself before the meanest object as an act of reverence to God."

To Man not being able to overcome his sin nature to bow down to the Creator of the Universe.

[ksen]

This sounds like the USSR's hatred of religion as the opiet of the masses"

Yeah, when I read that part I immediately thought of Karl Marx. There were also a few people who hang out on the CREVO threads that I thought of showing this to as well. ;^)

[RnMomof7]

To Man not being able to overcome his sin nature to bow down to the Creator of the Universe

I ~think~ the point is by "nature" man does not want to bow down to the True Holy God of creation..but they chose to make gods they are comfotable kneeling before..

Did you see The Gladiator? ..I watched as he handled his little gods..it was a very telling moment to me (pre calvinist days) that a man could worship there little things..may I give a brief example of what happens when a carnal man first sees the Holiness and power of God?

Luk 5:8   When Simon Peter saw [it], he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.

THAT is our inital human instinct..we want (like Adam and Eve) to run and hide so we do not have to look at ourselves in HIS light..

The problem is not getting men to kneel before a god..the issue is can the grace of God overcome our natural response to make us desire to kneel before the One true holy God of creation...and not run away to hide behing the leaves?

[ksen]

Hmm, I took what Calvin said a little differently. I thought he may have been saying that Man has the need to worship God, but due to our warped view of God, because of sin, we CANNOT worship the True God, only our pale caricatures of Him.

Am I way off base?

Oh, and do you find it odd that we are three chapters into "The Institutes" and Calvin hasn't made an appeal to the Scriptures yet? Maybe he's building up to it.

[RnMomof7]

Hmm, I took what Calvin said a little differently. I thought he may have been saying that Man has the need to worship God, but due to our warped view of God, because of sin, we CANNOT worship the True God, only our pale caricatures of Him.

I would say that is accurate..man does have a "need" to worship ...the question is (as I see it??) as Cain shows us we want it on our terms ..thus the gods of mans own making...

I am not sure if we are looking at flip sides of the same coin ??

Remember I am reading these for the first time with you..

[ksen]

I would say that is accurate..man does have a "need" to worship ...the question is (as I see it??) as Cain shows us we want it on our terms ..thus the gods of mans own making...

Ok, so does Man having a "need" to worship the True God (but not being able to do so because of sin) have any implication for the Calvinist's statement that the Unregenerate Man is at war with God?

[ksen]

Remember I am reading these for the first time with you..

I hope we are doing ok. ;^)

Where's Jean?

[Wrigley]

He's been busy working odd shifts.

I need to talk to him about other stuff, and even I can't track him down.

Very frustrating.

[RnMomof7]

I have sent him a couple frmails..but no answer...hey wrig tell him we are looking for him:>)..You have any imput?

[Wrigley]

I'll let him know he's missed.

I talked to his wife in church yesterday. She is very frustrated with his schedule.

Maybe later.

I'm trying to do three easy things at once.

[RnMomof7]

Ok, so does Man having a "need" to worship the True God (but not being able to do so because of sin) have any implication for the Calvinist's statement that the Unregenerate Man is at war with God?

Did I miss something??Here is what I see

"That there exists in the human minds and indeed by natural instinct, some sense of Deity, we hold to be beyond dispute, since God himself, to prevent any man from pretending ignorance, has endued all men with some idea of his Godhead,

That is different than a sure knowlege of the one true God..but an awareness of a Diety...

Am I misreading this??

[ksen]

...but an awareness of a Diety...

Well, the quote you pulled does say "with some idea of his Godhead."

Man has a need to worship God. That need comes from our sense that God does exist. Our sin nature hides God's true Nature from us. We worship the image of God that makes it through the veil of our sin.

Our sin may cause us to worship God incorrectly, making Him into a whole different god, but our sin does not block our need to know God and worship Him.

How can we be said to be at war with the one we have a need to know and worship?

[ksen]

Am I misreading this??

I don't think so.

[RnMomof7]

Man has a need to worship God. That need comes from our sense that God does exist. Our sin nature hides God's true Nature from us

How does this fit?

    Rom 1:21   Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

     Rom 1:22   Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

     Rom 1:23   And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things

  Rom 1:24   Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

     Rom 1:25   Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. .

It seems that God darkened our understanding???

[anniegetyourgun]

I think you're both doing great! We are made in His image and therefore long for the Creator. Problem is, sin/rebellion causes us to re-make Him into our image...whether that be a trinket or, a "God who would never cast anyone into hell"...or even a "God who made me a homosexual".....and so on....