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Philosophical Problems with the Mormon Concept of God
Christian Research Institute ^ | Francis J. Beckwith

Posted on 02/13/2003 6:03:04 PM PST by scripter

Most Christians who critique the Mormon view of God do so from a strictly biblical perspective. Christian apologists have correctly pointed out that Mormon theology conflicts with biblical doctrine in a number of important areas, including the nature of God, the plan of salvation, and the nature of man.1 

Although the biblical approach should be the Christian's primary focus, Dr. Stephen E. Parrish and I have suggested another approach in several articles and books.2 This approach focuses on the philosophical rather than the biblical problems with the Mormon concept of God.

In this article I will (1) compare and contrast the Christian and Mormon concepts of God and (2) present three philosophical problems with the Mormon view.


THE CHRISTIAN CONCEPT OF GOD

Christians claim that their concept of God is found in the Bible. Known as classical theism, this view of God has long been considered the orthodox theistic position of the Western world. Though there are numerous divine attributes that we could examine, for our present purposes it is sufficient to say that the God of classical theism is at least (1) personal and incorporeal (without physical parts), (2) the Creator and Sustainer of everything else that exists, (3) omnipotent (all-powerful), (4) omniscient (all-knowing), (5) omnipresent (everywhere present), (6) immutable (unchanging) and eternal, and (7) necessary and the only God.

Let us now briefly look at each of these attributes.

1. Personal and Incorporeal. According to Christian theism, God is a personal being who has all the attributes that we may expect from a perfect person: self-consciousness, the ability to reason, know, love, communicate, and so forth. This is clearly how God is described in the Scriptures (e.g., Gen. 17:11; Exod. 3:14; Jer. 29:11).

God is also incorporeal. Unlike humans, God is not uniquely associated with one physical entity (i.e., a body). This is why the Bible refers to God as Spirit (John 4:24).

2. The Creator and Sustainer of Everything Else that Exists. In classical theism, all reality is contingent on God that is, all reality has come into existence and continues to exist because of Him. Unlike a god who forms the universe out of preexistent matter, the God of classical theism created the universe ex nihilo (out of nothing). Consequently, it is on God alone that everything in the universe depends for its existence (see Acts 17:25; Col. 1:16, 17; Rom. 11:36; Heb. 11:3; 2 Cor. 4:6; Rev. 4:11).

3. Omnipotent. God is also said to be omnipotent or all-powerful. This should be understood to mean that God can do anything that is (1) logically possible (see below), and (2) consistent with being a personal, incorporeal, omniscient, omnipresent, immutable, wholly perfect, and necessary Creator.

Concerning the latter, these attributes are not limitations of God's power, but perfections. They are attributes at their infinitely highest level, which are essential to God's nature. For example, since God is perfect, He cannot sin; because He is personal, He is incapable of making Himself impersonal; because He is omniscient, He cannot forget. All this is supported by the Bible when its writers assert that God cannot sin (Mark 10:18; Heb. 6:18), cease to exist (Exod. 3:14; Mal. 3:6), or fail to know something (Job 28:24; Ps. 139:17-18; Isa. 46:10a). Since God is a perfect person, it is necessarily the case that He is incapable of acting in a less than perfect way which would include sinning, ceasing to exist, and being ignorant.

When the classical theist claims that God can only do what is logically possible, he or she is claiming that God cannot do or create what is logically impossible. Examples of logically impossible entities include "married bachelors," "square circles," and "a brother who is an only child." But these are not really entities; they are merely contrary terms that are strung together and appear to say something. Hence, the fact that God cannot do the logically impossible does not in any way discount His omnipotence.

Also counted among the things that are logically impossible for God to do or create are those imperfect acts mentioned above which a wholly perfect and immutable being cannot do such as sin, lack omniscience, and/or cease to exist. Since God is a personal, incorporeal, omniscient, omnipresent, immutable, wholly perfect, and necessary Creator, it follows that any act inconsistent with these attributes would be necessarily (or logically) impossible for God to perform. But this fact does not count against God's omnipotence, since, as St. Augustine points out, "Neither do we lessen [God's] power when we say He cannot die or be deceived. This is the kind of inability which, if removed, would make God less powerful than He is.... It is precisely because He is omnipotent that for Him some things are impossible."3

But what about Luke 1:37, where we are told that "nothing is impossible with God?" (NIV) Addressing this question, St. Thomas Aquinas points out that this verse is not talking about internally contradictory or contrary "entities," since such "things" are not really things at all. They are merely words strung together that appear to be saying something when in fact they are saying nothing.4 Hence, everything is possible for God, but the logically impossible is not truly a thing.

4. Omniscient. God is all-knowing, and His all-knowingness encompasses the past, present, and future.5 Concerning God's unfathomable knowledge, the psalmist writes: "How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand. When I awake, I am still with you" (Ps. 139:17,18). Elsewhere he writes, "Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit" (147:5). The author of Job writes of God: "For he views the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens" (Job 28:24). Scripture also teaches that God has total knowledge of the past (Isa. 41:22). Concerning the future, God says: "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please,'" (Isa. 46:10). Elsewhere Isaiah quotes God as saying that knowledge (not opinion or highly probable guesses) of the future is essential for deity (Isa. 41:21-24), something that distinguished God from the many false gods of Isaiah's day.

5. Omnipresent. Logically following from God's omniscience, incorporeality, omnipotence, and role as creator and sustainer of the universe is His omnipresence. Since God is not limited by a spatio-temporal body, knows everything immediately without benefit of sensory organs, and sustains the existence of all that exists, it follows that He is in some sense present everywhere. Certainly it is the Bible's explicit teaching that God is omnipresent (Ps. 139:7-12; Jer. 23:23-24).

6. Immutable and Eternal. When a Christian says that God is immutable and eternal, he or she is saying that God is unchanging (Mal. 3:6; Heb. 6:17; Isa. 46:10b) and has always existed as God throughout all eternity (Ps. 90:2; Isa. 40:28; 43:12b, 13; 57:15a; Rom. 1:20a; 1 Tim. 1:17).6 There never was a time when God was not God.

Although God certainly seems to change in response to how His creatures behave such as in the case of the repenting Ninevites His nature remains the same. No matter how the Ninevites would have responded to Jonah's preaching, God's unchanging righteousness would have remained the same: He is merciful to the repentant and punishes the unrepentant. Hence, a God who is responsive to His creatures is certainly consistent with, and seems to be entailed in, an unchanging nature that is necessarily personal.

7. Necessary and the Only God. The Bible teaches that although humans at times worship some beings as if these beings were really gods (1 Cor. 8:4-6), there is only one true and living God by nature (Isa. 43:10; 44:6, 8; 45:5, 18, 21, 22; Jer. 10:10; Gal. 4:8; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; 1 Tim. 2:5; John 17:3; 1 Thess. 1:9). And since the God of the Bible possesses all power (see above), there cannot be any other God, for this would mean that two beings possess all power. That, of course, is patently absurd, since if a being possesses all of everything (in this case, power) there is, by definition, nothing left for anyone else.7

Moreover, since everything that exists depends on God, and God is unchanging and eternal, it follows that God cannot not exist. In other words, He is a necessary being,8 whereas everything else is contingent.


THE MORMON CONCEPT OF GOD

Apart from biblical influences, the Mormon doctrine of God is derived primarily from three works regarded by the Mormon church (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints [LDS]) as inspired scripture: The Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants (hereafter D&C), and the Pearl of Great Price. (Most of these writings were supposedly received through "revelation" by the movement's founder and chief prophet, Joseph Smith.) It is also found in Smith's other statements and doctrinal commentaries. Although not regarded by the LDS church as scripture per se, Smith's extracanonical pronouncements on doctrine are almost universally accepted by the Mormon laity and leadership as authoritative for Mormon theology.

The Mormon doctrine of God is also derived from statements and writings of the church's ecclesiastical leaders especially its presidents, who are considered divinely inspired prophets. Additionally, we will consider the arguments of contemporary LDS philosophers who have attempted to present Mormonism's doctrine of God as philosophically coherent.9

Because there are so many doctrinal sources, it may appear (with some justification) that it is difficult to determine precisely what the Mormons believe about God. For example, the Book of Mormon (first published in 1830) seems to teach a strongly Judaic monotheism with modalistic (God is only one person manifesting in three modes) overtones (see Alma 11:26-31, 38; Moroni 8:18; Mosiah 3:5-8; 7:27; 15:1-5), while the equally authoritative Pearl of Great Price (first published in 1851) clearly teaches that more than one God exists (see Abraham 4-5). This is why a number of Mormon scholars have argued that their theology evolved from a traditional monotheism to a uniquely American polytheism.10

Consequently, our chief concern will not be the historical development of Mormon theism, but rather, the dominant concept of God currently held by the LDS church. Though there is certainly disagreement among Mormon scholars concerning some precise points of doctrine, I submit that the church currently teaches that God is, in effect, (1) a contingent being, who was at one time not God; (2) finite in knowledge (not truly omniscient), power (not omnipotent), and being (not omnipresent or immutable); (3) one of many gods; (4) a corporeal (bodily) being, who physically dwells at a particular spatio-temporal location and is therefore not omnipresent like the classical God (respecting His intrinsic divine nature we are not considering the Incarnation of the Son of God here); and (5) a being who is subject to the laws and principles of a beginningless universe with an infinite number of entities in it.

No doubt there are individual Mormons whose personal views of God run contrary to the above five points. But since both the later writings of Joseph Smith and current Mormon orthodoxy clearly assert these five points, Mormons who dispute them are out of step with their church.

The modern Mormon concept of God can best be grasped by understanding the overall Mormon world view and how the deity fits into it. Mormonism teaches that God the Father is a resurrected, "exalted" human being named Elohim who was at one time not God. Rather, he was once a mortal man on another planet who, through obedience to the precepts of his God, eventually attained exaltation, or godhood, himself through "eternal progression."

Omniscience, according to Mormon theology, is one of the attributes one attains when reaching godhood. Mormons appear to be divided, however, on the meaning of omniscience. It seems that some Mormons believe omniscience to mean that God has no false beliefs about the past, present, and future. This view is consistent with the classical Christian view.11

On the other hand, the dominant Mormon tradition teaches that God only knows everything that can possibly be known. But the only things that can possibly be known, traditional Mormons say, are the present and the past, since the former is occurring and the latter has already occurred. Consequently, since the future is not a "thing" and has never been actual (and hence cannot possibly be known), God does not know the future. Therefore, the Mormon God is omniscient in the sense that he knows everything that can possibly be known, but he nevertheless increases in knowledge as the future unfolds and becomes the present.12 The common ground of the two Mormon views is that God must, at minimum, have complete and total knowledge of everything in the past and in the present.

Once Elohim attained godhood he then created this present world by "organizing" both eternally preexistent, inorganic matter and the preexistent primal intelligences from which human spirits are made. Mormon scholar Hyrum L. Andrus explains:

Though man's spirit is organized from a pure and fine substance which possesses certain properties of life, Joseph Smith seems to have taught that within each individual spirit there is a central primal intelligence (a central directing principle of life), and that man's central primal intelligence is a personal entity possessing some degree of life and certain rudimentary cognitive powers before the time the human spirit was organized.13

For this reason, Joseph Smith wrote that "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be."14 In other words, man's basic essence or primal intelligence is as eternal as God's.

The Mormon God, by organizing this world out of preexistent matter, has granted these organized spirits the opportunity to receive physical bodies, pass through mortality, and eventually progress to godhood just as this opportunity was given him by his Father God. Consequently, if human persons on earth faithfully obey the precepts of Mormonism they, too, can attain godhood like Elohim before them.

Based on the statements of Mormon leaders, some LDS scholars contend that a premortal spirit is "organized" by God through "spirit birth." In this process, human spirits are somehow organized through literal sexual relations between our Heavenly Father and one or more mother gods, whereby they are conceived and born as spirit children prior to entering the mortal realm (although all human persons prior to spirit birth existed as intelligences in some primal state of cognitive personal existence).15 Since the God of Mormonism was himself organized (or spirit-birthed) by his God, who himself is a "creation" of yet another God, and so on ad infinitum, Mormonism therefore teaches that the God over this world is a contingent being in an infinite lineage of gods.16 Thus, Mormonism is a polytheistic religion.

Comparing the Mormon concept with the classical Christian concept of God (see the chart for a breakdown of this comparison17), Mormon philosopher Blake Ostler writes:

In contrast to the self-sufficient and solitary absolute who creates ex nihilo (out of nothing), the Mormon God did not bring into being the ultimate constituents of the cosmos neither its fundamental matter nor the space/time matrix which defines it. Hence, unlike the Necessary Being of classical theology who alone could not not exist and on which all else is contingent for existence, the personal God of Mormonism confronts uncreated realities which exist of metaphysical necessity. Such realities include inherently self-directing selves (intelligences), primordial elements (mass/energy), the natural laws which structure reality, and moral principles grounded in the intrinsic value of selves and the requirements for growth and happiness.18

Mormonism therefore teaches a metaphysical pluralism in which certain basic realities have always existed and are indestructible even by God. In other words, God came from the universe; the universe did not come from God (although he did form this planet out of preexistent matter).

It follows from what we have covered that in the Mormon universe there are an infinite number of intelligent entities, such as gods (exalted humans) and preexistent intelligences. If this is denied, however, the Mormon must somehow reconcile a finite number of these beings with an infinite past. For instance, if there is only a finite number of gods in a universe with an infinite past, then there was a time when no gods existed (which Joseph Smith denies19). For a finite number of gods coming into being cannot be traced back infinitely. Moreover, if there is only a finite number of gods, then the continually repeated scenario of a god organizing intelligences so that they can begin their progression to godhood would have never begun. This is so because in Mormonism one needs a god in order for another to become a god, and no being has always been a god.

Furthermore, if there were only a finite number of preexisting intelligences in the infinite past, then there could no longer be any preexistent intelligences who could become gods, since they would all certainly be "used up" by now. An infinite amount of time is certainly sufficient to use up a finite number of preexistent intelligences. At any rate, in order for Mormonism to remain consistent, it must teach that there is an infinite number of gods and preexistent intelligences in an infinitely large universe.


SOME PHILOSOPHICAL PROBLEMS WITH THE MORMON CONCEPT OF GOD

In our two books, Dr. Parrish and I deal with a number of philosophical problems with the Mormon concept of God.20 In this article I will present three of these. Because of space constraints, however, I cannot reply to all the possible Mormon responses to these problems. For this reason, I refer the reader to the detailed replies in my two books.


The Problem of an Infinite Number of Past Events

It is evident from what we have covered that Mormonism teaches that the past series of events in time is infinite or beginningless. Joseph Fielding Smith, the Mormon church's tenth prophet and president, writes that Joseph Smith "taught that our Father had a Father and so on."21 Heber C. Kimball, who served as First Counselor in the church's First Presidency, asserts that "we shall go back to our Father and God, who is connected with one who is still farther back; and this Father is connected with one still further back, and so on...."22 Apostle and leading doctrinal spokesman Bruce R. McConkie writes that "the elements from which the creation took place are eternal and therefore had no beginning."23 O. Kendall White, a Mormon sociologist, points out that because Mormon theology assumes metaphysical materialism it "not only assumes that God and the elements exist necessarily, but so do space and time. In contrast, traditional Christian orthodoxy maintains that space and time, along with everything else except God, exist because God created them."24

There are several philosophical and scientific problems in asserting that the series of events in the past is beginningless. Philosopher William Lane Craig has developed four arguments two philosophical and two scientific along these lines.25 In this article, I will apply Craig's second philosophical argument to the Mormon concept of God:

(Premise 1) If the Mormon universe is true, then an infinite number (or distance) has been traversed.
(Premise 2) It is impossible to traverse an infinite number (or distance).
(Conclusion) Therefore, the Mormon universe is not true.

Premise 1 is certainly true. We have seen already that the Mormons fully acknowledge that the past is infinite. And if it is infinite, then certainly an infinite number of events has been traversed to reach today.

But can an infinite number actually be traversed, as premise 2 denies? I think it is clear that it cannot. Consider the following example.

Imagine that I planned to drive on Interstate 15 from my home in Las Vegas to the Mormon temple in Salt Lake City. The distance is 450 miles. All things being equal, I would eventually arrive in Salt Lake. But suppose the distance was not 450 miles, but an infinite number. The fact is that I would never arrive in Salt Lake, since it is by definition impossible to complete an infinite count. An "infinite" is, by definition, limitless. Hence, a traversed distance by definition cannot be infinite. Consequently, if I did eventually arrive in Salt Lake City, this would only prove that the distance I traveled was not infinite after all. That is to say, since I could always travel one more mile past my arrival point, arriving at any point proves that the distance I traveled was not infinite.

Now, let us apply this same logic to the Mormon universe. If the universe had no beginning, then every event has been preceded by an infinite number of events. But if one can never traverse an infinite number, one could never have arrived at the present day, since to do so would have involved traversing an infinite number of days. In order to better understand this, philosopher J. P. Moreland provides this example:

Suppose a person were to think backward through the events in the past. In reality, time and the events within it move in the other direction. But mentally he can reverse that movement and count backward farther and farther into the past. Now he will either come to a beginning or he will not. If he comes to a beginning, then the universe obviously had a beginning. But if he never could, even in principle, reach a first moment, then this means that it would be impossible to start with the present and run backward through all of the events in the history of the cosmos. Remember, if he did run through all of them, he would reach a first member of the series, and the finiteness of the past would be established. In order to avoid this conclusion, one must hold that, starting from the present, it is impossible to go backward through all of the events in history.

But since events really move in the other direction, this is equivalent to admitting that if there was no beginning, the past could have never been exhaustively traversed to reach the present moment.26

It is clear, then, that premises 1 and 2 are true. Given the fact that the argument is valid, the conclusion therefore follows: the Mormon universe is not true. And if the Mormon universe is not true, then the Mormon God does not exist, since his existence is completely dependent on the existence of the Mormon universe.


The Problem of Eternal Progression with an Infinite Past

In this second objection, unlike the first, I am arguing that even if we assume that the past series of events in time is infinite, it is impossible for the Mormon doctrine of eternal progression to be true. Although Dr. Parrish and I present three arguments for this view in one of our books,27 I will limit myself to one argument in this article.

Mormon theology teaches that all intelligent beings have always existed in some state or another and progress or move toward their final eternal state. McConkie writes:

Endowed with agency and subject to eternal laws, man began his progression and advancement in pre-existence, his ultimate goal being to attain a state of glory, honor, and exaltation like the Father of spirits....This gradually unfolding course of advancement and experience a course that began in a past eternity and will continue in ages future is frequently referred to as a course of eternal progression.

It is important to know, however, that for the overwhelming majority of mankind, eternal progression has very definite limitations. In the full sense, eternal progression is enjoyed only by those who receive exaltation.28

Here is the problem: if the past series of events in time is infinite, we should have already reached our final state by now. Yet, we have not reached our final state. Therefore, the Mormon world view is seriously flawed.

The Mormon may respond by arguing that we have not yet reached our final state because there has not been enough time for it to have transpired. But this is certainly no solution, since the Mormon's own world view affirms that an infinite length of time has already transpired. One cannot ask for more than an infinite time to complete a task.

We must conclude, then, that since none of us has reached his or her final state whether it be deity or some posthumous reward or punishment the past series of events in time cannot be infinite in the sense the Mormon church teaches. For even if we assume that the past is infinite, since we have not yet reached our inevitable fate the Mormon world view is still false.


The Problem of Achieving Omniscience by Eternal Progression

McConkie explains the Mormon doctrine of eternal progression when he writes that "during his [an evolving intelligence] earth life he gains a mortal body, receives experience in earthly things, and prepares for a future eternity after the resurrection when he will continue to gain knowledge and intelligence" (D&C 130:18-19). McConkie then states that the God of this world (Elohim) went through the same process until he reached a point at which he was "not progressing in knowledge, truth, virtue, wisdom, or any of the attributes of godliness."29 That is to say, the Mormon God progressed from a point of finite knowledge until he reached a point of omniscience (infinite knowledge). I believe, however, that this view is incoherent. Consider the following inductively strong argument:

(Premise 1) A being of limited knowledge gaining in knowledge entails the increasing of a finite number.

(Premise 2) Starting from a finite number, it is impossible to count to infinity.

(Premise 3) The Mormon view of eternal progression entails a being of limited knowledge gaining in knowledge until his knowledge is infinite (remember, the Mormon universe contains an infinite number of things).

(Conclusion 1/Premise 4) Therefore, the Mormon view cannot be true, for it is impossible given premises 1, 2, and 3 for eternal progression to entail that a being of limited knowledge gains knowledge until his knowledge is infinite.

(Premise 5) The Mormon doctrine of eternal progression is entailed by the Mormon concept of God.

(Conclusion 2) Therefore, the Mormon concept of God is incoherent.

Let us review each of these premises. Premise 1 is clearly true: Mormon theology teaches that all beings are limited in knowledge unless or until they attain godhood (see D&C 130:18-19). Consequently, every time one of these beings acquires a new item of knowledge on his or her journey to godhood it amounts to an increase in a finite number of items of knowledge.

Premise 2 asserts that it is impossible to count to infinity if one starts at a finite number. For example, if one begins counting 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and so on no matter when one stops counting one can always add one more member to the count. But if one can always add one more member, then one can never arrive at an infinite number which is, by definition, limitless. To use an example cited earlier, one can never arrive in a city an infinite distance away, since it is impossible to complete a count (or a distance) which has a limitless number of members.

Premise 3 that the Mormon view of eternal progression entails that a being of limited knowledge gains in knowledge until his knowledge is infinite (since there are an infinite number of things for the Mormon god to know in his universe) is a doctrine clearly taught by Joseph Smith:

Here, then, is eternal life to know the only wise and true God; and you have to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power....When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation.30 (emphasis added)

Therefore, given that premises 1, 2, and 3 are established as valid, then conclusion 1 logically follows. And if conclusion 1 is linked with premise 5 (a foundational belief of Mormon theism), the final conclusion of the argument logically follows: the Mormon concept of God is incoherent.

Someone may argue that the Mormon God receives his infinite knowledge from his own "Heavenly Father" God all at once when he reaches a particular point in his progression. Although there are a number of replies to this argument,31 one is to point out that this response does not really explain how the Mormon God acquires his infinite knowledge. It merely places the problem on the shoulders of a more distant God, who acquired his supposed omniscience from an even more distant God, and so on into infinity.

Appealing to an endless series of contingent beings as an explanation for why all the Mormon gods are omniscient explains nothing. Consider the following: If Being A does not have the sufficient reason for his omniscience in the being who created him (Being B), but requires other prior conditions (i.e., B receiving his omniscience from his creator, Being C, and C receiving his omniscience from his creator, Being D, ad infinitum), then the necessary conditions for the omniscience of any one of the gods in the series are never fulfilled and can never be fulfilled in principle. It follows from this that none of the gods in the Mormon universe could have ever actually attained omniscience. Whether a Mormon god "progresses" to infinite knowledge or receives it all at once from his own superior God, the Mormon concept of God is nevertheless incoherent.

In conclusion, I began this article by defining both the Christian and Mormon concepts of God, showing them to be radically different. I then presented three related philosophical criticisms of the Mormon concept of God: (1) the problem of an infinite number of past events; (2) the problem of eternal progression with an infinite past; and (3) the problem of achieving omniscience by eternal progression. I believe these criticisms clearly demonstrate that philosophically the Mormon concept of God is irredeemably flawed.


Francis J. Beckwith, Ph.D. is Lecturer of Philosophy at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. He is the author of five books, including The Mormon Concept of God: A Philosophical Analysis (Edwin Mellen Press, 1991) and See the Gods Fall: A New Approach to Christian Apologetics (Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1993), both of which he coauthored with Dr. Stephen E. Parrish.


NOTES

1 E.g., Walter R. Martin, The Maze of Mormonism, 2d ed. (Santa Ana, CA: Vision House, 1978); Jerald and Sandra Tanner, The Changing World of Mormonism (Chicago: Moody Press, 1980).
2 Francis J. Beckwith and Stephen E. Parrish, The Mormon Concept of God: A Philosophical Analysis, Studies in American Religion, vol. 55 (Lewiston, NY: Edwin Mellen Press, 1991); Beckwith and Parrish, See the Gods Fall: A New Approach to Christian Apologetics (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1993); Beckwith and Parrish, "The Mormon God, Omniscience, and Eternal Progression," Trinity Journal 12NS (Fall 1991):127-38.
3 Saint Augustine, City of God (Garden City, NY: Image Books, 1958), 5.10.
4 Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, I, 25, 3, as contained in Introduction to Saint Thomas Aquinas, ed. Anton C. Pegis (New York: The Modern Library, 1948), 231.
5 Some contemporary theists have denied this classical view of omniscience, claiming that God does not know the future. They do not deny, however, that God knows everything. Like many Mormon thinkers, they argue that since the future is not a thing (because it has not happened yet), it is impossible for God to know it. For a defense of this position, see Clark Pinnock, "God Limits His Knowledge," in Predestination and Free Will, eds. David Basinger and Randall Basinger (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1986), 141-62. For the opposing view, see the responses to Pinnock by John Feinberg, Norman L. Geisler, and Bruce Reichenbach, 163-77.
6 Although all orthodox Christians agree that God is eternally God, they dispute whether He exists in time (i.e., the temporal eternity view) or out of time (i.e., the timeless eternity view). See Thomas V. Morris, Our Idea of God: An Introduction to Philosophical Theology (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1991), 119-38; and Ronald H. Nash, The Concept of God (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1983), 73-83.
7 It is true that by His power God grants power to His creatures. But unlike this hypothetical other God, their limited power is always subject to His unlimited power. Thus God "possesses" all power in that all other power comes from, and is under, His power.
8 Orthodox Christians all agree that God is in some sense necessary, but they do not all agree on what that means. See Morris, 107-13; and Nash, 106-13.
9 For example, Gary James Bergera, ed., Line Upon Line: Essays in Mormon Doctrine (Salt Lake City, UT: Signature Books, 1989); Sterling M. McMurrin, The Philosophical Foundations of Mormon Theology (Salt Lake City: University of Utah Press, 1959); Sterling M. McMurrin, The Theological Foundations of the Mormon Religion (Salt Lake City: University of Utah Press, 1965); Blake Ostler, "The Mormon Concept of God," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 17 (Summer 1984):65-93; David Lamont Paulsen, The Comparative Coherency of Mormon (Finitistic) and Classical Theism (Ann Arbor, MI: University Microfilms, 1975); Kent Robson, "Omnis on the Horizon," Sunstone 8 (July-August 1983):21-23; Kent Robson, "Time and Omniscience in Mormon Theology," Sunstone 5 (May-June 1980):17-23; and O. Kendall White, Jr., Mormon Neo-Orthodoxy: A Crisis Theology (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1987), 57-67.
10 James B. Allen, "Emergence of a Fundamental: The Expanding Role of Joseph Smith's First Vision in Mormon Religious Thought," Journal of Mormon History 7 (1980):43-61; Thomas G. Alexander, "The Reconstruction of Mormon Doctrine: From Joseph Smith to Progression Theology," Sunstone 5 (July/August 1980):32-39; Boyd Kirkland, "The Development of the Mormon Doctrine of God," in Bergera, 35-52.
11 Neal A. Maxwell, "A More Determined Discipleship," Ensign (February 1979):69-73; Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience (Salt Lake City: Deseret Books, 1979).
12 Ostler cites four Mormon leaders who have held views consistent with this view of omniscience: presidents Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff, and Lorenzo Snow; and scholar B. H. Roberts. See Ostler, 76-78.
13 Hyrum L. Andrus, God, Man and the Universe (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1968), 175.
14 D&C 93:29.
15 Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), 386-87, 516-17, 750-51.
16 See Joseph Smith, History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (hereafter HC), 7 vols., introduction and notes, B. H. Roberts, 2d rev. ed. (Salt Lake City: The Deseret Book Company, 1978), 6:305-12.
17 This chart, changed slightly for this article, originally appeared in Beckwith and Parrish, The Mormon Concept of God, 38.
18 Ostler, 67.
19 Joseph Smith declares, "Hence, if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also?...." (HC, 6:476). See also McConkie, 577.
20 Ibid., chapters 3 and 4; and Beckwith and Parrish, See the Gods Fall, chapter 3.
21 Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1959), 1:12.
22 Journal of Discourses, by Brigham Young, President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, His Two Counsellors, the Twelve Apostles, and Others, 26 vols., reported by G. D. Watt (Liverpool: F. D. Richards, 1854-86), 5:19.
23 McConkie, 77.
24 White, 61.
25 William Lane Craig, The Kalam Cosmological Argument (New York: Macmillan Publishing Co., 1979). A popular version of his arguments can found in his The Existence of God and the Beginning of the Universe (San Bernardino, CA: Here's Life Publishers, 1979).
26 J. P. Moreland, Scaling the Secular City (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1987), 29.
27 Beckwith and Parrish, The Mormon Concept of God, 59-63.
28 McConkie, 238-39.
29 Ibid., 239.
30 HC, 6:306-7.
31 See Beckwith and Parrish, The Mormon Concept of God, 75-76.

 

CHRISTIAN MORMON
1. Personal and incorporeal    1.Personal and corporeal (embodied)
2. Creator and sustainer of contingent existence 2. Organizer of the world, but subject to the laws  and principles of a beginningless universe
3. Omnipotent 3. Limited in power
4. Omniscient 4. Limited in knowledge
5. Omnipresent in being 5. Localized in space
6. Immutable and eternal  6. Mutable and not eternal (as God)
7. Necessary and the only God 7. Contingent and one of  many gods
CONCEPT OF GOD CONCEPT OF GOD

 



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To: Illbay
"The very existence of matter and energy begs the question "where did these things come from?".

Wrong. The very existence of that QUESTION can only come from someone who HAS to think in terms of "beginning, middle, and end."

Assertion without proof, and even if proven does not invalidate statement.

Our minds do not readily accept the concept of "eternity" or "infinity."

Even when we can "define" the words, or the mathematical constructs, most of us can't deal with something that has no beginning, middle and end.

The Cartesian plane, the Fourier series representation of a square wave, the parabola, hyperbolic functions, we can deal with the concept quite well thank you.

Matter and energy are because they always WERE and they always WILL BE. Period.

This cannot be proven, but it does by virtue of the fact that an answer was attempted, prove my original point.

61 posted on 02/14/2003 11:00:05 PM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (Where are those "golden plates" by the way?)
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To: P-Marlowe
Ok pick one and we'll talk about it. I'm not going to waste 50 pages of valuable bandwidth trying to answer each one of your sweeping unsupported statements in post 15. That could take all night.

I was hoping there were simple answers to my statements in post 15, and that it wouldn't take all night. But focus is good.

Here goes Question one:

(This particular) "Christian" concept of God makes no mention of Jesus Christ. Are we to assume that the God it discusses is Jesus Christ or someone/thing else?

62 posted on 02/14/2003 11:12:58 PM PST by wai-ming
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To: wai-ming
As does the very existence of God. Where did He come from?

Very good question, let us hold on to it for a bit, as i believe that you already know the answer

Your statement confuses me somewhat. First you say that you have no problem with a God who works within natural laws, then you admit that God "probably" could have created Ex Nhilo if He had wanted to.

Perhaps God made a choice between the two. Just because he "could have" done it a certain way, doesn't mean he actually did it that way.

It is in the above statement that you have answered your own question. How could have God possibly made a choice between the two if matter/energy had already existed? At least in your own thinking you are presuming that God existed before matter/energy. God is by definition eternal. You have in fact, demonstrated the difficulty of presuming anything else.

63 posted on 02/14/2003 11:19:03 PM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (Where are those "golden plates" by the way?)
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To: wai-ming
(This particular) "Christian" concept of God makes no mention of Jesus Christ. Are we to assume that the God it discusses is Jesus Christ or someone/thing else?

If you read the article carefully you will notice that the author states the following: "(respecting His intrinsic divine nature — we are not considering the Incarnation of the Son of God here)"

Thus the article is not an article on the trinitarian doctrine, but on the intrinsic nature of God, i.e, the intrinsic nature of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as One God.

Thus it is safe to assume that when the author is talking about the nature of God he is speaking of the whole triune nature of God and not of the individual natures of the persons of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

64 posted on 02/14/2003 11:25:03 PM PST by P-Marlowe ("There's no such thing as a "Mormon" church. Never has been." Illbay 2/14/03)
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To: wai-ming; P-Marlowe
Respectfully, you are asking P-Marlowe for something far more difficult than you suspect. i don't know what language you consider native, but i suspect that you are not a "native" English speaker. You should then realise that sentence structure can only be approximated from one language to another.

You may or may not be aware that the Greek of Colossians 1:16-17 actually begins the Sentence at verse nine, and ends the sentence at verse 20. Try to diagram that sentence, and i suspect that you would end up with something that looks as if it was the mechanical drawing of the "Starship Enterprise".

If you wish, i could do a word-for-word translation, but i warn you, it would be quite time consuming and lengthy, involving explanation of Greek grammar, syntax, and idiom.

65 posted on 02/14/2003 11:40:17 PM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (Where are those "golden plates" by the way?)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
Actually CDL I had challenged Wai ming and Cubicle guy to diagram the sentence, or at least the sentence fragment. My main point was that the phrase repeated four times in regard to the creation was "all things." Not some things, but ALL things. It seems the LDS are of the opinion that God only created some things and he worked with material that pre-existed him. Now if all things were created by him, that would necessarily include the things that the Mormons Claim have been in existence apparently even before God. They claim that Gen 1:1 refers to organizing existing material rather than creating all things by the power of his Word. To me their theory of the nature of God is nothing short of Blasphemy.
66 posted on 02/15/2003 12:02:44 AM PST by P-Marlowe ("There's no such thing as a "Mormon" church. Never has been." Illbay 2/14/03)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
Actually, it was P-Marlowe who asked us to diagram the sentences.

I merely accepted his challenge, and took a stab at it.

English prepositions are extremely confusing to non-native speakers. (e.g. what's the difference between "in," "on," and "at"?) It's not the big words that confuse, it's the little ones.

No direct translation from Greek is needed. I'm still trying to make sense of the English.

Thanks for your pleasantness. I enjoy a good debate, and have sparred with the best of them here on the Religious Forum. It's good to have someone who can deal with my inquisitiveness without becoming defensive. The only way I can learn new things is to continue to ask tough questions. Hope you don't mind.

67 posted on 02/15/2003 12:05:19 AM PST by wai-ming
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To: wai-ming
i'm not at all bothered by tough questions, that is how one learns. There is a more serious problem than you realise in translating the New Testament from Greek to English. Greek was actually more precise, with clearly defined rules, and not very many exceptions to those rules. English, on the other hand is vulgar, and is subject to quite a bit of misunderstanding. Perhaps you have noticed that Americans are more prone to quarrel than most other peoples (except possibly Australians)? i suspect that a large part of this is the fact that our language is subject to a great many misunderstandings, making it easy to take offense.

i must confess that i never did give much thought to the use of English prepositions, perhaps that is because of the fact that i am a native English speaker, and one rarely questions the structure of one's own language. i am quite acutely aware of the use of prepositons in the Greek, since it is not a native language to me (although i read and write it fluently).

68 posted on 02/15/2003 12:16:40 AM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (Where are those "golden plates" by the way?)
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To: P-Marlowe
i suspect that they can make their case from Genesis 1:2 and on, but Genesis 1:1 really begs the question. i responded to wai-ming from John 1:3, and may look at Colossians later, if my eyes can still focus.
69 posted on 02/15/2003 12:20:56 AM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (Where are those "golden plates" by the way?)
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To: scripter
From the table at the end of the article: 3. Omnipotent 3. Limited in power 4. Omniscient 4. Limited in knowledge 5. Omnipresent in being 5. Localized in space

Why does the author claim that this is what we believe? Talk about setting up a strawman and knocking it down!

If they cannot show it from the LDS Scriptures, they should not pretend it is what we believe.

>> CHRISTIAN MORMON

These headings are incorrect. They should read "Other Christians" and "Latter-Day Saints", since Latter-Day Saints are Christians no matter how many times others deny it.

This does not bode well for the rest of the article. Is this table part of the article? Written by the same authors? (I ask because the table follows the footnotes.)

70 posted on 02/15/2003 5:25:30 AM PST by White Mountain (Jesus said, "... come, follow me." Luke 18:22)
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To: P-Marlowe
I answered it; you just have no intellectual ability to recognize the answer.

I'll try to put it in simple terms.

There. Is. No. Such. Thing. As. "Before". Or. "After". When. You. Are. Speaking. Of. Eternity.

The. Question. You. Pose. Is. Therefore. Meaningless.

God. Has. Always. Existed.

We. Have. Always. Existed.

Time. Only. Is. Measured. To. Man. Remember?

71 posted on 02/15/2003 6:59:32 AM PST by Illbay (If the hunger for liberty destroys order, the hunger for order will destroy liberty. - Will Durant)
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To: CubicleGuy
Be prepared for the response that you didn't answer the question.
72 posted on 02/15/2003 7:00:29 AM PST by Illbay (If the hunger for liberty destroys order, the hunger for order will destroy liberty. - Will Durant)
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To: White Mountain
If they cannot show it from the LDS Scriptures, they should not pretend it is what we believe.

Has Mormon scripture or doctrine ever changed?

These headings are incorrect. They should read "Other Christians" and "Latter-Day Saints", since Latter-Day Saints are Christians no matter how many times others deny it.

The headings are fine as they are. Christians, by definition, are followers of the Christ of the New Testament, Jesus - the Son of God. Mormons have redefined the God and Christ of the Bible and follow a false god. By definition, Mormons are not Christians as defined in the Bible.

73 posted on 02/15/2003 7:03:05 AM PST by scripter
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
Assertion without proof, and even if proven does not invalidate statement.

Wrong. In turn, assertion of a child who when he doesn't like the answer, will ask the question again. And again.

It's too bad that you can't conceive of the inconceivable. Too bad that you can't realize there are things that, in this stage of your existence, it is impossible for you to realize.

Right now, you are limited. You have ONLY your experience in mortality, in time and space, to draw from, so you try to use that as a measuring-stick for everything else.

If you will read up on it you will find that modern physics tells us that at the subatomic level, the universe gets very, very, very strange. It is nearly inexplicable at the level of the average man's understanding. Even concepts such as time and location in space seem to have no meaning.

The elements are eternal. They just ARE, and the notion of "beginning, middle, end" ultimately have no bearing on the way the universe operates.

Too bad you can't at least admit that there is something to that notion.

74 posted on 02/15/2003 7:04:23 AM PST by Illbay (If the hunger for liberty destroys order, the hunger for order will destroy liberty. - Will Durant)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
This cannot be proven,...

Neither can the existence of God, at least to the extent of consensus.

75 posted on 02/15/2003 7:05:30 AM PST by Illbay (If the hunger for liberty destroys order, the hunger for order will destroy liberty. - Will Durant)
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To: scripter
Has Mormon scripture or doctrine ever changed?

No, and the lies that you people tell about them have stayed pretty consistent as well.

76 posted on 02/15/2003 7:07:57 AM PST by Illbay (If the hunger for liberty destroys order, the hunger for order will destroy liberty. - Will Durant)
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To: Illbay
***God. Has. Always. Existed.
We. Have. Always. Existed.***

"In the beginning was Illbay."

Yeah, right.
77 posted on 02/15/2003 7:15:15 AM PST by drstevej
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To: Illbay
I asked White Mountain
Has Mormon scripture or doctrine ever changed?
Mormon Illbay says
No, and the lies that you people tell about them have stayed pretty consistent as well.
In a week I've seen you make some unupportable statements and can't help if wondering, is this just another? To what specific lies are you referring.
78 posted on 02/15/2003 7:45:15 AM PST by scripter
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To: Illbay; drstevej; CARepubGal; White Mountain; scripter; RnMomof7; Ruy Dias de Bivar; Wrigley; ...
God. Has. Always. Existed. We. Have. Always. Existed.

Now believe me Illbay this is an honest question. If we have always existed as you say, then we were not only "in the beginning with God" but it would appear from your statement that we, like God the Father, were in existence even before the beginning.

Now my understanding is that the LDS Church believes that each person on this earth is literally a spirit child of God the Father -- that is the purpose of Celestial Marriage so that the Temple endowed married couple can procreate and have spirit children in eternity and then populate their own planet with their own "Children of God" when they become exalted to the position of "God."

Now if my premise is wrong correct me, but that is what I was taught and that is what I understand that those who actually believe in the LDS Gospel believe.

Now with that in mind could you explain this to me:

If we always existed, just like God the Father, then how could it be that we were his "spirit Children" in the pre-existence. What is the purpose of Celestial Marriage and how can you have spirit children that have already existed from all eternity?

It makes no sense. Help me out here Illbay.

79 posted on 02/15/2003 9:11:59 AM PST by P-Marlowe (How can we be God's Sprit Children if we are as old as God?)
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To: P-Marlowe
I'm treating your question as a legitimate one.

When we say "in the beginning" we do not mean "at the beginning of eternity," do we?

I think even you might admit that. If we have an "eternal soul," could that soul have a beginning? No.

It's like the difference in geometry between a "line" and a "ray." The "ray" has a beginning point but no end point. A "line" has no beginning or end.

We are not "rays," we are "lines."

Now, there was a "time" when we did not exist as spirit creatures of God. We had to be spiritually "created" (that is to say, "organized") before we were PHYSICALLY organized.

That is why we Latter-Day Saints say that we are "spirit children of God." He, God, took of the "stuff" that was there--we call it "intelligence"--and he organized it, gave it "spirit" form. In that sense we are ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY creatures of God. Without His power we would NOT have been created, or organized, in the Spirit. Likewise, we would not have the opportunity to gain physical bodies, which he has, and live in mortality, then immortality.

Consider the ramifications of the Resurrection. Why was it necessary for Christ to be resurrected? Why must WE be resurrected, if having physical bodies means nothing?

I hope you can see the implications of this.

80 posted on 02/15/2003 10:17:57 AM PST by Illbay (If the hunger for liberty destroys order, the hunger for order will destroy liberty. - Will Durant)
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