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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord; RnMomof7; xzins; the_doc; a_Turk
Israel as a national entity was set aside, Not the Jews.... It does NOT follow that God does not deal with the Jews. Evidence of this is individual Jewish Converts.

This is an absolutely beautiful argument, CDL. I wish I'd thought of it (and be assured that I shall now plagiarize it).

It certainly gives the Lie to any "dispensationalist" claims that Covenant Theology is "anti-Semitic".

This is particularly re-assuring to me, because I have always maintained... I am a Zionist. I don't have any moral objection to that Label. I wear it freely. OP = Zionist; Zionist = OP.

What I am not, at least any more, is a Dispensationalist Zionist. I do not presume that the modern State of Socialist Israel, mired in Marxist Economics and the Denial of the Messiah, represents the fulfillment of God's Promises to the Jewish People.

It is my belief that God has a better plan entirely for the Jews. "All Israel shall be Saved". I believe this on the basis of of the Salvationist promises of Romans 11, not an idolatrous and therefore Materialist worship of modern Socialist Israel.

Unlike the Dispensationalist Zionists, my support of Modern Israel is in no way whatsoever founded upon the (anti-Christian) belief that the modern State of Socialist Israel, mired in Marxist Economics and the Denial of the Messiah, represents the fulfillment of God's Promises to the Jewish People. Modern Israel may be incorporated into God's Plan for the Salvation of the Jews (at least if the "Jews for Jesus" have anything to say about it, provided that the Orthodox Jews of Israel do not OUTLAW their Evangelism), but Modern Israel does not represent the fulfillment of God's Promises to the Jewish People.

Rather, my Zionism is a political Zionism. I believe that Contracts are Binding, and that Men should Honor their Word. A Bargain was struck in 1917 between the Zionists and the Arab Nationalists -- the Turkish Empire would be destroyed, both the Zionists and the Arab Nationalists would support Great Britain in her War against the Turks.

In return for Zionist and the Arab Nationalist support ("Lawrence of Arabia", y'all?), it was agreed that 99% of the Turkish Middle East would be given over to Arab Nationalist regimes, and 1% of the Turkish Middle East ("Jewish Palestine", from the Mediterranean to the River Jordan -- including the so-called "West Bank") would be given over to the Zionists as a "Jewish National Homeland".

As such, I am sorry to have to tell the Palestinian Arabs to go "piss up a rope", and since I am not a Dispensationalist Zionist, I have the Theological Honesty to criticize Modern Israel for her human-rights violations against the Palestinian Arabs for what they are -- human rights violations, whether the Israel uber alles Dispensationalist Zionists want to admit it or not.

But at the same time, if the Representative Principle means anything, I am prepared to advise the Palestinian Arabs, get with the program -- your Muslim Arabic brethren agreed to accept 99% of the Turkish Middle East as the price of their support for gutting the Turkish Empire, and they agreed to cede 1% of the Turkish Middle East to the Jews as the price of Zionist support for gutting the Turkish Empire.

Either you agree to become peaceful, productive citizens of Zionist Israel (Israeli Arabs enjoy fundamental Constitutional rights), or you agree at least to non-violent protest of your situation... or you move. Your Muslim Arab brethren control 99% of the Middle East, and that is your alloted portion. Contracts are Binding, and Men should Honor their Word.

The funny thing is, even Turkey seems to understand this. Israel has few better allies in the Middle East than the Kemal-Ataturkized Nation of Turkey (Turkey -- from whom the land was stolen -- which is a crying shame; A Turkish Middle East would be far easier to deal with, and if unruly Arabs must be managed, I think it was a better world when the Turks spent their own Blood trying to manage them, then if America must expend her own Blood).

But despite giving their Word, at the 1917 Balfour Declaration and the 1921 Paris Peace Agreements, the Arab Nationalists and the Palestinians still can't seem to get with the program (even when Turkey, CAN).

And so...
I AM A Covenant Theologian.
But at the same time, I AM A Zionist.

(Whether the Dispensationalists can accept that or not)

29 posted on 03/07/2003 10:37:12 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are unworthy Servants; We have only done our Duty)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; Calvinist_Dark_Lord
It certainly gives the Lie to any "dispensationalist" claims that Covenant Theology is "anti-Semitic".

OP, it would be inappropriate to accuse covenant theology of being anti-semitic. It is only possible to accuse individuals of being anti-semitic. In this world, past and present, there have been a variety of folks who have dehumanized Jews. This was true even before Jesus, so there's a deeper problem there than just the satanic claim that they are "Christ-killers."

The most prominent haters of Jews have been politically persuaded. Nazism used racism as one of its means to acquire and maintain power and to justify expansionism. Stalinism simply extended czarist pogromism to violate racial groups....especially Jews.

Covenant Theology is an EASIER vehicle for advocating anti-semitism because it does displace Israel. With Israel intentionally being set aside by the theology, it is easier for unscrupulous or unbalanced individuals to abuse that idea into an anti-semitic position.

Dispensationalism, as I understand it, could ALSO be abused. In it, Israel has been "set aside" for an indeterminate period of time. I can see an an anti-semitic position being built from that perspective were an unscrupulous person to abuse it. (After all, people DO follow Binny Hinn, and did follow Jim Jones, Joe Smith, etc.)

Dispensationalism simply has never been in a position of political influence as has covenant theology. CT, in terms of being an articulated position, is older, was the position of the Reformation, and found its way by that into governmental circles. Luther did not help with his conversion to a thorough-going Jew hater late in life. His writings in that period did serious damage, and they are an area of his theology that need to be repudidated by every generation of Lutherans.

31 posted on 03/08/2003 4:17:20 AM PST by xzins (Babylon, you have been weighed in the balance and been found wanting!)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; drstevej
I do not presume that the modern State of Socialist Israel, mired in Marxist Economics and the Denial of the Messiah, represents the fulfillment of God's Promises to the Jewish People.

There are no Dispensationalists who say that the modern state of Israel is the fulfillment of God's promises to the Jewish people. There are a bunch who say that this is the beginning of the fulfillment, but not the fulfillment itself.

46 posted on 03/10/2003 5:32:46 AM PST by ksen (HHD)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
I believe that Contracts are Binding....

What about this Contract?

Gen 17:
[8] And I[God] will give unto thee[Abraham], and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

47 posted on 03/10/2003 5:39:25 AM PST by ksen (HHD)
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