Posted on 02/24/2003 9:12:32 AM PST by Frumanchu
And you know the response I get back from the Calvinists here?
Could I have stopped the wreck? After all, I could've prevented him from driving the car, couldn't I?
So I must've wanted him to have the wreck and must've wanted the daughter to get pregnant.
Right?
Wrong!! Here's the answer you get from this Calvinist (assuming that i have correctly understood the post):
Unlike the parents given in the above example, (in blue text), God knows all future events. The parents in the example have no idea or future knowlege of the decisions and actions that their children will make, and the contingencies made by the rest of the "environment" that they will come into contact with. In short good fellow, man is finite, limited in knowlege. There is no way that this situation should have been presented as an anology to the actions and knowlege of an infinite, All-knowing, and all powerful God.
What we are dancing around is the question of the origin of Evil and Sin. All should agree that it did not start with man. Satan rebelled before the Earth was created according to most theologies.
The argument of choice of the creature gets us ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE! How does the creature choose what does not yet exist in the Universe?
This argument of the origin of Evil/sin is the most solid argument AGAINST the existence of one God...it is also the greatest argument for the existence of one God. Of course, to avoid being accused of contradiction, let me state that the two arguments are different relationships.
If God exists, it does not follow that evil must exist, but if evil does exist, THEN God MUST exist! As for how it got here, i don't know, and neither do you. When we walk into That arena, we end up "killing off each other", because it is the fatal flaw to any Monotheistic system.
No. That's just one example. And I've discussed it with other Calvinists here. That church had many other issues and has since in the five years we left had a major split. But it does address an attitude I've seen from some Calvinists. Not all.
If you want to engage in serious discussion, with a view to truly understanding, I am happy to oblige, as well as many others.
I've been serious about everything I've said. Nothing anyone has said here has convinced me to change my view of Calvinism. In fact, it's been reenforced.
The truth always wins out in the end.
Of that we can be certain.
But I cannot get beyond the point that Calvinism tells me that God wanted Satan to rebel. I'm told He could have stopped it if He wanted to, but He didn't.
i am not certain that Calvinism tells you so much as the bible tells you that. i'm not even certain that Satan's fall is even so much of an Arminian/Calvinist discussion. We do know from the revelation of scripture that Angels do not have the same opportunity for redemption as mankind. In that sense, the Attonement of Christ IS truly limited, i don't think that there is any dispute about that matter.
Now to address your question.
There are a good many things in our own physical world that we don't understand and can't understand. ftD refers with contempt to a 'secret will' of God, and in a sense, he is quite correct. We see (on the monitors) a lot of nonsense written about decreeitive will, salvific will, permissive will, etc. This is nonsense, there is ONLY the Will of God. That God has a will is a matter of revelation to man. The EXTENT of that will is also a matter of revelation. This question goes beyond Arminianism/Calvinism too. An honest examination of scripture determines that there are and will continue to be matters of God that we cannot know, and will not know. We will not, for example, know the exact time that Christ will return until it happens, and Jesus explicitly stated that it was not for us to know. Do a search on the words 'secret' and mystery, (same word in the Greek), and you will see this.
For that matter, we don't even know if Satan's fall was even a matter of 'will' of either God or Satan...i will not proceed any further on this line of thought as it leads into docetic gnosticism. i don't know that we can know. One is looking at a situation that deals with the mind of an infinite God. Even in my glorified body and redeemed soul/spirit, i do not expect that i will ever know. We build our theological models on what is revealed. i do know that
1)God is holy and will not tolerate sin
2)Sin did enter the creation
3)Sin is not part of God's nature
4)God limits the extent of sin, and it is compelled to do nothing more or less than serve His purpose
5)Sin will be done away with
It is the How and Why questions that we cannot get a complete answer to. IMHO, the only alternative is atheism, and that is self-refuting.
i am sorry that i cannot provide a better answer, but i am stuck with my limits
Evil, which opposes the direct will of God, cannot exist without the direct will of God. For without the direct will of God, nothing can be!
I originally had heard the above quoted of Calvin, but I have not been able to verify that.
Similarly, Luther said, "Even the devil is God's devil!"
Jean
It stands to reason then that since God allowed Satan to rebel, God must have planned to use sin as a tool to further His Glory. While we may not see how that can be, it is not necessary for us to understand that in order for it to be true. God did not cause sin, He is not sinful in any way, but He can and has used sin in His creation as a tool. I'm inclined to think that no one can really understand how Holy and Righteous God is unless they have something to compare it to: Sin, which is the exact opposite of what God is. A study in contrasts, a graphic example, if you will.
For whatever reason, God has allowed, controlled, and directed sin in order to Glorify Himself, and to make known the riches of His Glory to those whom He has chosen to share it with. In this lifetime, we will probably never be able to answer why. It is certain that sin neither took Him by surprise, or caused Him a moment of consternation over its appearance. He knew it before it happened, and was in control of it, even then. As truly as God meant the sin of Joseph's brothers for Joseph's (and God's) good, the appearance of sin in God's creation was, and is, turned to God's good.
God created beings with the potential and capability of sinning, even though it wasn't initially in their nature to sin, nor was it God's desire that they sin, but sin they did, as God knew they would. Knowing that, He could turn what would be destructive into something that would ultimately benefit not only Him, but His chosen people as well. The end result is greater than if sin had never entered the world.
I never intended to try to hold up this example as a perfect illustration. It was to illustrate the faulty reasoning that was being employed to say that since God gave man the ability to choose (Pre-Fall), that since man chose poorly, God caused him to do so (set him up, so to speak). The analogy was to address that faulty reasoning, by giving an example that employed the same faulty reasoning to show how faulty it was. It was analogous to a parent allowing a child to do something, the child getting into trouble, and then saying that the parent CAUSED the trouble the child got into. There is a direct line of reasoning between the two that I was attempting to refute.
Sorry you didn't see it that way...
Again, you sound very Arminian to me.
I think it comes from your confusing of desire, will, and nature on man's part, and those same things when in reference to God. Arminians tend to view God in human terms, i.e. as just a bigger version of ourselves, rather than understanding that He is totally other than what we are. We were created in His image, but that doesn't mean that we are like Him or He like us. That is proven by the fact that God, in the person of His Son, Jesus, had to become a human in order to redeem us.
Any time a Calvinist says that sin is a part of God's Plan, Arminians immediately say that we are saying God created sin, and is the author of sin. That is a red herring they draw out to deflect the truth. Their man-centered, Gnostic view is that man screwed up God's Plan, so God has had to do all sorts of things to try to win man back to Him. They put man at the center, and man's will as the deciding factor, and make God a reactionary Being, reacting to man's decisions, man's desires. It all would have been so much better if man hadn't sinned....They've got God doing damage control.
The truth of the matter is that if God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, then anything that happens (has happened, will happen) in His creation is foreknown, fore-planned, and fore-ordained. How could it not be, given God's obvious attributes?
Sorry, I'm not reading any further. You don't know what you're talking about.
This is what Arminians have a hard time with IMHO..God is the restrainer of Sin...without His intervenbtion the world would be a place no mon would be safe in.
. Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
They think man is "good" and some outside force has to make them do evil. it is not what the word of God teaches..
Quoted in the sermon Sunday..the devil is an instrument in the hand of God
Were you brainwashed when you left Arminianism Rn? You know that's NOT TRUE.
(you know better)
Whose will is it when you sin?
Spoken by a master of the same....I know all too well what I'm talking about. I've been there, and have seen it logically played out on these threads. You don't know me well enough to make that assessment (gee, where have I heard that before...?), and I'm dealing with the logical conclusions based on your statements. That you choose not to see it makes it no less true.
You said: Arminians tend to view God in human terms, i.e. as just a bigger version of ourselves...
That's an ignorant statement. That's all the assessment I need.
Exactly right! Unregenerate man has the choice to decide what KIND of sin he will commit, but he cannot of his own volition choose NOT to sin, seeing that he is by nature a sinful being. His very existence is sinful, being born in sin, and helpless to do anything BUT sin. Even breathing is a sin, because he draws breath in defiance of God, even though God graciously allows him to draw breath. Arminians can't handle the implications of that.
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