The nature of human free will

1986 | R.C. Sproul

[Frumanchu]

I apologize for the length of this post, but I felt extremely relevant to recent discussions involving free will and sovereignty. I found it interesting that some of the statements made on both sides of the argument in these threads match almost word for word to points mentioned in this chapter.

This is chapter 3 from the book entitled Chosen by God by R.C. Sproul. Please do bear in mind in discussing this that this is only one chapter and that some of the points here are further developed and explored throughout the book.

[Frumanchu]

Perhaps this will explain a little better the Reformed view of the nature of man's free will. Bump anyone I missed!

[Wrigley]

Thanks for the ping

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

The neutral view of free will is impossible. It involves choice without desire. That is like having an effect without a cause. It is something from nothing, which is irrational.

While i understand what Dr. Sproul is getting at, this is an unfortunate statement. Something from nothing is not irrational, it is indeed, how the creation came about, and no one has ever successfully accused God of irrationality! It would have been better to say that for finite, limited human beings, it is something from nothing, which is irrational...ex nihilo, nihilo fit only applies to the creation, not the Creator.

[Frumanchu]

Something from nothing is not irrational, it is indeed, how the creation came about, and no one has ever successfully accused God of irrationality!

I would agree in the case of God's creative power. He created the Universe from nothing. But in the case above we're addressing human will. Indeed, does not God's will (at least as far as we're concerned) also operate by the same principle as ours insofar as God does not make random choices but rather those according to His desires (which, fortunately for us, happen to be immutably good)?

[Corin Stormhands]

Bookmarked to read later.

[onedoug]

God is the pure Good, to which we contribute in image and His hope in us to its aspiration.

[fortheDeclaration]

Decision-making is a complex matter because the options we encounter are often varied and many. Add to that that we are creatures with many and varied desires. We have different, often even conflicting, motivations.

So, in the end what is the final decision maker?

If in a believer, with a new nature, facing the temptations to sin, why does he sin and when he does is it God willing him to do so?

Moreover, Sproul is setting up a strawman to knockdown.

No one is defending the neutral theory since choices are based on desires.

The question is what the the ultimate source and thus, who bears the responsiblity for that choice, God or man?

In other words, when we sin, we must reject God's Holy Spirit, and do our own will.

Is that part of God's will for our lives, to sin?

The problem the Calvinists have is that they will not concede that man can resist God's will a resistance that God allows and does control, but nevertheless a resistance against God and foreknown by Him. (Acts.7:51)

[LiteKeeper]

read later

[Hank Kerchief]

He created the Universe from nothing.

Would you mind supplying a passage of Scripture that indicates that God created the material univers from, "nothing." And, while you're at it, you might take a stab at explaining exactly what you believe "nothing" is?

I will supply Scriptures that indicate the Material Universe was created by God, but not from "nothing."

Hank

[Hank Kerchief]

"Free will," is a meaningless expression invented by Calvinists to undermine the concept of volition, or that aspect of human nature that reguires all thought and action to made by choice.

The question is not whether or not men can choose, but whether it is possible to surrender choice to whim or passion and not be responsible. It is impossble for a human beings to do anything without choosing to do it.

Here is a something I wrote for another purpose, but fits here:

The Nature of Choice

Everything we do as human beings we must choose to do. Even to do nothing requires a choice.

Before we go any further, let's get something out of the way. As soon as you mention choice, someone will bring up the question of, "free will." Don't ever get caught in that trap. The meaning of that expression is hopelessly muddled and has nothing to do with this matter of choice.

"Do you really believe people have free will?" you will be asked. "You can't do just anything you want," it will be argued. "People's behavior is determined by many things, their nature, their heredity, their subconscious, their environment, their education, their economic status....blah, blah, blah."

All of that has nothing to do with the fact that to do anything, you must choose to do it. You do not have to study theology, psychology, and philosophy for a million years to know this is true. You can test it for yourself, once and for all, and never have to worry about this question again.

Sit down in a chair somewhere. (You'll have to choose to do it.) Now make one more choice. Choose not to choose anything else. Just sit there and let your nature, your heredity, your subconscious, environmental influences, your education, or your money determine your actions.

What happens when you do that? Nothing!

If you never choose anything again, you will never do anything again, but notice, even to not choose you must choose.

The ability to choose, which we call volition, is not about what can be chosen, or how one chooses, or why one chooses, but the fact that a human being not only can choose, but must choose, and that this necessity of choice cannot be avoided or bypassed so long as one is fully conscious. It means that everything a human being does is done by choice.

I am convinced the non-concept called, "free will," is impossible of meaning, and is always a confusion of desire and choice, which are totally different concepts.

The terms "free", and "choice", and "will" all appear in Scripture, and always they are clearly differentiated. The devilishly confused expression, "fee will," never appears in Scripture.

What Calvinits hate about the undeniable fact that human beings cannot do anything without choosing to do it is its converse, which is, if human beings do anything, they have to have choosen to do it.

It is impossible for a human being to do anything without choosing to do it. It is impossible for a person to believe in Jesus Christ without choosing to do it. Salvation is not an accident that happens to someone.

Hank

[Frumanchu]

Hank, you can redefine and cast aside terms all you want. Or we can come to an agreement on definitions and proceed to an actual discussion of the matters at hand. All your post says is that Calvinists intentionally cloud the issue by inventing and redefining terms. Well, that's not my intent. My intent is to discuss and explorer with you the nature and logic behind human will and how it relates to the sovereignty of God. We are all agreed that man has at least some amount of choice (or there would be no accountability) and that God has at least some measure of sovereignty (or there would be no hope). Our attempt here is to figure out how they interact and co-exist. There is no reason why we can't take a rational look at this relationship in an attempt for us to all better understand it.

[Frumanchu]

Would you mind supplying a passage of Scripture that indicates that God created the material univers from, "nothing." And, while you're at it, you might take a stab at explaining exactly what you believe "nothing" is?

Ok, I'll play. If God created the universe from pre-existent matter, where did that matter come from? Regardless of how far back you want to take it, at some point there existed only God. Unless you want to argue for the eternal nature of the universe itself apart from God, at which point I will throw out my Bible.

[RnMomof7]

I will supply Scriptures that indicate the Material Universe was created by God, but not from "nothing."

Provide a scripture that says He didnt..And remember that before the first line of Genesis the Universe was already in existance and the Spirit of God was already brooding over it .Genesis is about the "organization " of the earth ..

[Hank Kerchief]

We are all agreed that man has at least some amount of choice (or there would be no accountability) and that God has at least some measure of sovereignty (or there would be no hope). Our attempt here is to figure out how they interact and co-exist. There is no reason why we can't take a rational look at this relationship in an attempt for us to all better understand it.

That is fine. I have never questioned your sincerity in honestly seeking the truth in this or any other issue, and I also appreciate differences of opinion rationally presented, as yours always are.

On this issue, I cannot accept any concept that mixes "desire" and the human capacity/necessity to think and act by choice, called volition. My argument is that a human being cannot do anything that is strictly human without consciously choosing to do so, and if a human being does anything without consciously choosing to do so, (like coughing or sneezing) it is not strictly speaking a human action, but merely a biological or caused event.

I also cannot consider anything to have moral consequence if is not by choice. Any human behavior that is not the result of conscious choice, has no moral character, but is like a sneeze or cough, merely a caused event.

There is an attempt by some to becloud this issue by claiming that choice itself is, somehow, determined. But that which is determined is not chosen, but merely a naturally (or if God is the determiner) a supernaturally caused event.

Then how can God be Sovereign if everything a human being does is by uncaused and undetermined choice?

That this seems a problem for some has always amazed me. On the one hand they seem to say, God is omnipotent and omniscient and nothing can happen that he does not determine, but on the other hand they seem to say, if man really can and must choose everything he does and thinks, that would make it impossible for God to be sovereign. But that is putting a limitation on God. Why couldn't God determine everything if man is truly a volitional being? What is the limitation on the God that prevents Him from determining everything even if man's volition choice is not caused by anything?

Now, to be honest, I know what the apparent contradiction is. If God determines everything, but man's choice is not determined, then everything is not determined, and God does not determine everything. And this would be a contradiction, too, if one simple thing, called context, was not being ignored. Human beings live in a material temporal world and all their choices and actions are made in that context. Within that context none of their choices are determined. But God is not bound by the limits of time and materiality, and within the context of the super-existense, of which our material existense is only a subset, there is no reason events in the temporal/material existense cannot be completely determined, including all that every human being will ever do, and do by their uncaused volitional choice.

This does not solve all the problems, and great care must be maintained to keep these two contexts separate, but I see no philosophical, logical, or even theological problem with this view. While it solves the problem, it does so in a way the will not be acceptable to those bent on holding their Calvinist views, no-matter-what.

Hank

[Frumanchu]

Hank, I believe we are in complete agreement as far as what you've just stated. I do also believe that the Calvinist position (not necessarily the all the "Calvinists" themselves) affirms the same things. Hashing this all out promises to be fun, but I promise to carry through if you do:) If you wish to do so in private that's fine too.

[Hank Kerchief]

Ok, I'll play. If God created the universe from pre-existent matter, where did that matter come from? Regardless of how far back you want to take it, at some point there existed only God. Unless you want to argue for the eternal nature of the universe itself apart from God, at which point I will throw out my Bible.

I assure you, this is not a game.

You begin with an assumption, when you say, "If God created the universe from pre-existent matter...." Matter is the substance of the material universe, what we call the natural world. But the material universe is not all that God created, and probably only an infinitesimal part of all He has created. We know He created everything, which includes not only the material universe, but all of the supernatural, or what the Bible calls, the celestial realms of Angels and other wonderful subpernatural beings, as well.

Regardless of how far back you want to take it, at some point there existed only God.

This, also, I think is a mistake. When wouldn't there have been God? In fact, the idea that God is eternal means that there never was a time when God wasn't. And when was God's nature different? The Bible clearly declares that God works and creates, it is His naure (part of it, I mean). Also, you statment suggests that the works of god are done in, "time," and that some eternal things can exist before or after other eternal things. Surely you don't suppose God is limited to creating things which are not eternal, not existent in the same way he is. Then, if God makes eternal things, there would never be a state, in time or otherwise, when those eternal things which God creates and God Himself, did not both exist.

The Bible frequently distinguishes between the natural material world and the supernatural world as the seen (natural or temporal world) and unseen (supernatural or eternal world). For example, "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. (2 Cor 4:18)

Now surely, the things which are not seen are not nothing, else what would our faith be in? "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Heb 11:1) Certainly faith is not evidence of nothing. So the "not seen" is not "nothing."

Now the Bible clearly says, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." (Heb 11:3) So we see, the things which are seen (that is, the material temporal world) are not made out of nothing, that is ex nihilo, but for things which cannot be seen (the eternal and supernatural).

The problem with the concept of ex nihilo is that it was derived from an amalgum of mathematical concepts and paganism. In fact, there cannot be, "nothing," and nothing can come from what is not, but must also come from something.

So long as God is, there is something. And this is another way to consider the question. You mentioned the peculiar conscept of, "there existed only God." I'll ignore the obvious implication of a temporal quality to God's existense this introduces, and ask this question, what does "only God," mean? Since we cannot say, "was there a time when God had not yet created anything, since that suggests God exists with temporal limits, which we know is not true, what can we say? Is there some sense in which, in some mode, God can be called existent even thought there is nothing else existent, so that we would have to describe God in this imagined mode as existing nowhere doing nothing ....

It is inconceiveable. It is absurd. It is not possible for God to be and for nothing else to be, unless God were unable to be the source of all that is, and there were nothing else. If God is, there is always all that is eternal with Him.

The material world had a beginning, because the material world is temporal and constrained by the laws of material existence. The supernatural world of which God is the source, and it all "springs" from him is eternal. That does not mean that everything in the supernatural realm is eternal, but that the realm itself must be, else it could not be God's realm.

The natural world is a subset of the supernatural world, and was (as a technical explanation) differentiated from the supernatural world by the imposition of those qualtities we call the spatial/temporal(physical)laws of nature.

If you say God made the material world out of nothing, it makes God nothing.

Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Col. 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Hank

[Hank Kerchief]

You quoted me: I will supply Scriptures that indicate the Material Universe was created by God, but not from "nothing."

Then you said: Provide a scripture that says He didnt...

Can you provide a Scripture that says God didn't make the world from peach pits? Can you provide a Scripture that says God did not make the world from Heaven's trash? (Sometimes it seems like that's what it is.)

Of course you can't, and I'm pulling your leg a little for asking me a question you knew wasn't exactly kosher. Never mind, I did provide just such a verse, or verses, in my response to Frumanchu, here, post #17.

Hank

[Frumanchu]

OK, I'm the victim of poor word choice here. When I said "regardless of how far back you want to take it" I was speaking in terms of reduction based on the premise of working with what I termed "pre-existent matter." I see now that you were referring to something else.

It is inconceiveable. It is absurd. It is not possible for God to be and for nothing else to be, unless God were unable to be the source of all that is, and there were nothing else. If God is, there is always all that is eternal with Him.

I admittedly have a difficulty with this from a logical standpoint. Here's why. The very act of creation carries with it a 'before' and 'after.' Otherwise they were not created...they simply were. You and I were clearly created. We are promised eternity with God, meaning that we shall be with Him eternally...going forward. Do you maintaint that our souls pre-existed our incarnation? Satan had to already exist at the point of creation. Satan cannot have been in the bottomless pit while simultaneously appearing in Eden.

I think we're off on a tangent here, but it raises some interesting questions. I certainly maintain that God not only creates but sustains all things.

[RnMomof7]

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

What were all those "things made from?

We can argue over the hebrew word for create...But unless you do not believe the truth of the New Testament ...John stated it lest there be any misunderstanding

Made
ginomai {ghin'-om-ahee}

TDNT Reference Root Word

TDNT - 1:681,117 a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb

Part of Speech

v Outline of Biblical Usage

1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made

Psa 33:6   By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth