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I apologize for the length of this post, but I felt extremely relevant to recent discussions involving free will and sovereignty. I found it interesting that some of the statements made on both sides of the argument in these threads match almost word for word to points mentioned in this chapter.

This is chapter 3 from the book entitled Chosen by God by R.C. Sproul. Please do bear in mind in discussing this that this is only one chapter and that some of the points here are further developed and explored throughout the book.

1 posted on 02/24/2003 9:12:32 AM PST by Frumanchu
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To: RnMomof7; Jean Chauvin; OrthodoxPresbyterian; xzins; fortheDeclaration; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; ...
Perhaps this will explain a little better the Reformed view of the nature of man's free will. Bump anyone I missed!
2 posted on 02/24/2003 9:15:37 AM PST by Frumanchu (Warning - the post you just read may contain statements of an offensive nature. Truth hurts...)
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To: Frumanchu; RnMomof7
The neutral view of free will is impossible. It involves choice without desire. That is like having an effect without a cause. It is something from nothing, which is irrational.

While i understand what Dr. Sproul is getting at, this is an unfortunate statement. Something from nothing is not irrational, it is indeed, how the creation came about, and no one has ever successfully accused God of irrationality! It would have been better to say that for finite, limited human beings, it is something from nothing, which is irrational...ex nihilo, nihilo fit only applies to the creation, not the Creator.

4 posted on 02/24/2003 10:16:30 AM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (He must increase, but I must decrease)
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To: Frumanchu
Bookmarked to read later.
6 posted on 02/24/2003 11:20:18 AM PST by Corin Stormhands (free drstevej)
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To: Frumanchu
God is the pure Good, to which we contribute in image and His hope in us to its aspiration.
7 posted on 02/24/2003 12:59:33 PM PST by onedoug
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To: Frumanchu
read later
9 posted on 02/24/2003 3:50:56 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: Frumanchu; RnMomof7; Jean Chauvin; OrthodoxPresbyterian; xzins; fortheDeclaration; ...
"Free will," is a meaningless expression invented by Calvinists to undermine the concept of volition, or that aspect of human nature that reguires all thought and action to made by choice.

The question is not whether or not men can choose, but whether it is possible to surrender choice to whim or passion and not be responsible. It is impossble for a human beings to do anything without choosing to do it.

Here is a something I wrote for another purpose, but fits here:

The Nature of Choice

Everything we do as human beings we must choose to do. Even to do nothing requires a choice.

Before we go any further, let's get something out of the way. As soon as you mention choice, someone will bring up the question of, "free will." Don't ever get caught in that trap. The meaning of that expression is hopelessly muddled and has nothing to do with this matter of choice.

"Do you really believe people have free will?" you will be asked. "You can't do just anything you want," it will be argued. "People's behavior is determined by many things, their nature, their heredity, their subconscious, their environment, their education, their economic status....blah, blah, blah."

All of that has nothing to do with the fact that to do anything, you must choose to do it. You do not have to study theology, psychology, and philosophy for a million years to know this is true. You can test it for yourself, once and for all, and never have to worry about this question again.

Sit down in a chair somewhere. (You'll have to choose to do it.) Now make one more choice. Choose not to choose anything else. Just sit there and let your nature, your heredity, your subconscious, environmental influences, your education, or your money determine your actions.

What happens when you do that? Nothing!

If you never choose anything again, you will never do anything again, but notice, even to not choose you must choose.

The ability to choose, which we call volition, is not about what can be chosen, or how one chooses, or why one chooses, but the fact that a human being not only can choose, but must choose, and that this necessity of choice cannot be avoided or bypassed so long as one is fully conscious. It means that everything a human being does is done by choice.

I am convinced the non-concept called, "free will," is impossible of meaning, and is always a confusion of desire and choice, which are totally different concepts.

The terms "free", and "choice", and "will" all appear in Scripture, and always they are clearly differentiated. The devilishly confused expression, "fee will," never appears in Scripture.

What Calvinits hate about the undeniable fact that human beings cannot do anything without choosing to do it is its converse, which is, if human beings do anything, they have to have choosen to do it.

It is impossible for a human being to do anything without choosing to do it. It is impossible for a person to believe in Jesus Christ without choosing to do it. Salvation is not an accident that happens to someone.

Hank


11 posted on 02/24/2003 5:52:22 PM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: Frumanchu
What I call Edwards Law of Choice is this: “The will always chooses according to its strongest inclination at the moment.”

That would make us automatons, subject to whim of the strongest inclination. We wouldn't have to take any responsibility for our own actions. "The devil made me do it."

It takes courage and integrity to choose contrary to what may be the strongest inclination. Yet people somehow manage to do it, often in the face of incredible odds.

Christ set the prime example. He was tempted by the strongest inclinations of every kind. But he chose to ignore them all.

257 posted on 03/15/2003 11:29:57 AM PST by wai-ming
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