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To: Frumanchu
We are all agreed that man has at least some amount of choice (or there would be no accountability) and that God has at least some measure of sovereignty (or there would be no hope). Our attempt here is to figure out how they interact and co-exist. There is no reason why we can't take a rational look at this relationship in an attempt for us to all better understand it.

That is fine. I have never questioned your sincerity in honestly seeking the truth in this or any other issue, and I also appreciate differences of opinion rationally presented, as yours always are.

On this issue, I cannot accept any concept that mixes "desire" and the human capacity/necessity to think and act by choice, called volition. My argument is that a human being cannot do anything that is strictly human without consciously choosing to do so, and if a human being does anything without consciously choosing to do so, (like coughing or sneezing) it is not strictly speaking a human action, but merely a biological or caused event.

I also cannot consider anything to have moral consequence if is not by choice. Any human behavior that is not the result of conscious choice, has no moral character, but is like a sneeze or cough, merely a caused event.

There is an attempt by some to becloud this issue by claiming that choice itself is, somehow, determined. But that which is determined is not chosen, but merely a naturally (or if God is the determiner) a supernaturally caused event.

Then how can God be Sovereign if everything a human being does is by uncaused and undetermined choice?

That this seems a problem for some has always amazed me. On the one hand they seem to say, God is omnipotent and omniscient and nothing can happen that he does not determine, but on the other hand they seem to say, if man really can and must choose everything he does and thinks, that would make it impossible for God to be sovereign. But that is putting a limitation on God. Why couldn't God determine everything if man is truly a volitional being? What is the limitation on the God that prevents Him from determining everything even if man's volition choice is not caused by anything?

Now, to be honest, I know what the apparent contradiction is. If God determines everything, but man's choice is not determined, then everything is not determined, and God does not determine everything. And this would be a contradiction, too, if one simple thing, called context, was not being ignored. Human beings live in a material temporal world and all their choices and actions are made in that context. Within that context none of their choices are determined. But God is not bound by the limits of time and materiality, and within the context of the super-existense, of which our material existense is only a subset, there is no reason events in the temporal/material existense cannot be completely determined, including all that every human being will ever do, and do by their uncaused volitional choice.

This does not solve all the problems, and great care must be maintained to keep these two contexts separate, but I see no philosophical, logical, or even theological problem with this view. While it solves the problem, it does so in a way the will not be acceptable to those bent on holding their Calvinist views, no-matter-what.

Hank

15 posted on 02/25/2003 10:56:23 AM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: Hank Kerchief
Hank, I believe we are in complete agreement as far as what you've just stated. I do also believe that the Calvinist position (not necessarily the all the "Calvinists" themselves) affirms the same things. Hashing this all out promises to be fun, but I promise to carry through if you do:) If you wish to do so in private that's fine too.
16 posted on 02/25/2003 11:23:02 AM PST by Frumanchu (Warning - the post you just read may contain statements of an offensive nature. Truth hurts...)
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