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Classical Hank, so deep nobody gets you. :)

As I understand it, God made the created world, including the seen and the unseen, out of Himself.

I don't expect everyone to "get" me, but obviously you have no problem.

In this case, what I said is very close to what you said yourself. I almost agree with you. (Most theologians, I think, would be upset at the expression, He made everythint "out of Himself." I like it, because it neatly does away with the ex nihilo notion, because certainly God is not nothing.

My only problem is I believe to say God exists is logically meaningless if nothing else exists, for two reasons: 1. by way of analogy, since God is not limited by material space and time, for anything to exist it must exist "somewhere" (what I call the supernatural realm) in "some form" (what I call God's nature; and 2. Since God's nature is eternal, and one aspect of that nature is creator, it is impossible that there was ever a state where God had not "created."

I take the verse in Ecclesiates 3:14, "I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him." to mean "eternal," in the sense of without beginning or end:

(By the way, do you know how long it took man to discover the law of conservation of matter and energy? ...and here it was all along.)

Psalms 102:12 But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations.

Certainly God endures "for ever" without beginning or end.

Psslms 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Again, God's righteous judgements did not have a beginning.

John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

So Christ abides forever, that is, eternally, without beginning or end.

Rom. 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Chirst is certainly "God blessed" eternally.

Often "for ever" means, "from now on and never to end," but, except where that meaning is clear, it usually means, "eternally, without beginning or end."

Hank